Its competition time, the question was raised, what is deemed to be a working dog? What does ipo rule say? with k9 units and Civilians competing in the same arena, how does one determine this without causing an up roar.

1) Could it be said that only police, security and military dogs are working dogs
2) Or any dog that responds to commands in the same fashion as a police dog
3) Or is it breed specific, only Mal’s, Gsd ext.

The reason for this question, we have civilians that want to compete with jack russels, now some members have a big dog syndrome, saying it will degrade the sports prestige, there are only a few events, send away, agility, squaring, sent work (explosives and Nark) Man work and tracking.

Wouldn't the operative word here be "Working"? A beagle used to by Department of Agriculture to detect meat, fruit ect., is a working dog As is the corgi used to herd cattle. Perhaps it is not so much the breed as what the dog does. Those that work for a living would seem to carry the title, Working dog.

DFrost

Here's an example to help answer your question.

When I was young, we bred/raised/trained Beagles. The Beagles help put food on the table, they were hunting dogs (rabbit, squirrel, etc). Some winters, without the help of the Beagles, meat would be scarce, they did their job and did it well (or were sold).

A dog is taken out on to a field and worked in SchH, doesn't really do anything else except the sport. It knows protection, obedience, and tracking and little else. It has no other "job".

Which is the working dog?

I know if I were still depending on hunting to put food on the table, I'd say those Beagles were a LOT more of a working dog than a SchH dog. All depends on perspective.

You all made some good points but you avoided his question should a Jack Russel be trained in IPO?

I agree that the Beagal and the Jack are working dogs in their field (hunting, tracking, narc, Customs inspection). But I do see what the IPO people are saying that training a Jack Russle in PPT or IPO/Shc (which I believe is like golden gloves to pro boxing, its a excellent start).

To be truthful a Jack is just too small to be a factor in IPO or man work (though these little suckers would give it all they got) he is just too small to be effective. Notice there are some people who think the GSD and Mals are too small.

Breeds like the Beagles, Corgis, JRussle terriers, Bloodhounds (I threw BHs in so it doesn't look like I'm picking on just the small dogs) are indeed working dogs but they just can't do all four aspects of the art.

If you want to train him with the help of a private trainer, for PPT work that might be interesting to see how he turns out. But in a club setting it would be like putting a flyweight boxer in with a middleweight, far too powerful and almost just as fast. I'm saying the comparison between the traditional dogs worked and the JT. But there is no doubt he give it a try, the JT is a spunky fearless little sucker. Its just not practical. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I have afriend that has a fantastic dog that tree's squirrels. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> That would make him a hunting dog (treeing canine)Right/correct. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Only problem is that he's from the herding group, does that make him a canine that herds squirrels, I THINK NOT!!! :rolleyes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
However he is a great treeing dog.(for those not familier with Treeing dogs, they chase or track the game then bark while under the tree that the squirrels have climbed into)

My good friend really like to brag on his TREEING WORKING LINE GERMAN SHEPERD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just because they can do a certain function or job does not change what they were intended.JMNSHO!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Maybe the Jack Russle group can start their own protection club, find a trainer and see what these little guys can do. But on the same field with teh bigger more pwoerful dogs would make them look inadequate for the job. They would have to jump to high to grab a hold, and would have not foot hold. It's just not practical but it might be fun. Give it a shoot on your own. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is simple, a working dog is a dog that can work. Where is the confusion?

Who cares if people enter with other breeds, any interest that we can draw to the sport is important. A working dog, in sport or any working discipline, should always be judged by what he can do. Not by what he looks like.

I tend to agree with Mike. The description of a working dog depends on what work. In our field (Sch, the ring sports and law enforcement) the description begins with good nerves and high drive. Which drives can vary - the fact is sport schutzhund dogs only need prey drive. Law enforcment needs more than a sport dog.

The question points to a very common problem that comes up when trainers talk - we often find people talking about the same thing using thifferent terms.

That's my biggest problem with sporting in general. It's not that I think it needs bigger or better things, I don't care either way. For me things need to be made to judge what a dog can do on or off field.

If someone wants to buy a dog for protection they have to have real proof on something that shows that. Experienced people already know but titles on lines to me should tell the novice generally more than it does.

If I'm looking at lines regardless of the parent's past I just care of one thing, do these pups have the genetic make up to do it off field.