Trying to explain Lou’s Low stim crittering technique to a behaviorist.

This is a person I respect and who is a good clicker training and I am working with her for some obedience training as I really like the clicker for establishing a behavior but she is not open to the concept of *correction* at any level.

I am open to using all tools that can help me, and really try to seek those who know how to use their respective tools for guidance and struggle sometimes when people tied into one technique cannot see value in other techniques because of how they have been abused by the unlearned.

To me, the beauty of Lou’s technique is that in the dog’s mind I did not issue a correction but something happened.. But what happens in there? The stim is so low that it really can’t be painful (I know because I decided I would not apply any shock to my dog without trying it out on me first)

I am convinced this technique saved my dogs life. We applied it when she was 5 months old, after extracting a rooster from her mouth and after she terrorized several goats. Two sessions and I have never had another issue with this and the stim was quite low. The timing was everything.

So I really like trying to communicate, be open, stimulate people to be open. ideas?

Many people have definate ideas about what is or isn't acceptable in training. Just know that in the long run you will have more success and learn more by not being stagnant. I still, like a dummy try to talk to these people. I should just smack my head into a wall and not be so stupid about it. All I get is frustrated. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think not utilizing corrections is like telling somebody to go somewhere without giving them directions. If they happen to turn down a correct street you praise them but you never tell them they were wrong when they go down the wrong road. At worst they never get where they were supposed to go, at best they finally get there but it was a frustrating experience for both of you.
I started to use Lou's e-collar instructions last week and the difference is amazing. My dog was dog aggressive to a degree beyond ridiculous. He even recognized dogs on TV. He would race to the TV screen and try to bite it. If you tried to hold him back he would bark and lunge and act completely crazy. Trying to take him in public verged on irresponsible.
After following Lou's instruction for the recall training he has been to the park twice. He was completely under control. I used the Here command once with the E collar while watching TV and it is no longer an issue. To me the strongest arguement that can be made for the E-collar is how much this has improved my dog's life. Instead of compulsively chasing his tail he went to a park, got good exercise, was mentally stimulated by new sights and experiences. All this was using a level 2 correction on a collar that goes up to level 18.

Clicker training is great but when they cross the line into "the NEVER punish your dog rules" it gets lost.
Training without corrections doesn't follow any rule of animal behavior, learning, or psycology. It's unbalanced, closed-minded, and uneffective to completely train without corrections. ALL animals in the "wild" natural life use some form of "negative" correction/punishment, including humans, so trying to deny the use of punishment is not logical. I'm not saying to beat your dog when he needs it, but the use of the lowest but most effective form of correction should be applied. Humans can verbally analyize what they did wrong and fix it but sadly dogs don't speak english. The world would be a better place if some humans were wearing e-collars though...he he he ::evil genius smirk:: "Good clicker trainer, click!! oopps... wrong button!"
Alison Voore

Very well put, Alison. It's like those parents that never spank their kids! The kids have no discipline and run all over their parents and other adults. People do this with their pets, and it's just as sad as parents with kids that have no discipline. It doesn't make since to me.

Yes, I still try to understand the no correction mentality as most people I have talked with with GSDs use the motivatioal training and proof with corrections.

But what I still don't understand is how such a LOW STIM can work. It is hard for me to believe this is really painful to the dog if it is not to me (and I put it on my neck behind me ear which is definitely a sensitive area)

Well, I may try to nail down Lou for an answer if no one really knows that part but perhaps I just have to accept that perhaps a no correction person will not be open to the possibility of correcting. But I don't find the crittering technique to actually be a *correction* it is more the dog learning consequences of a behavior as opposed to being corrected for failing to perform a trained behavior when corrected.

I will be gone most of the week enjoying a new granddaughter and helping her older sister, mom and dad who dod not have a landline (or internet)

Nancy wrote: But what I still don't understand is how such a LOW STIM can work.

LC: Nancy don't feel like the Lone Ranger on this. MANY people don't understand how it works and there are just as many who don't believe that it possibly can. At the end of March I did an Ecollar class for law enforcement. I worked two dogs that resisted the out command. Both had been the route of receiving harsh corrections with pinch collars and still fought the command. I had them both outing in about twenty minutes. One worked at a 12 (out of 100) and the other worked at an 8! I found this amazing because most dogs (and most people) can't even feel the stim below a 20.

LC: I think it has to do with the fact that this system of teaching with the Ecollar, rather than merely correcting already known behaviors, has the dog taking responsibility for the stim starting and stopping. The dogs come to believe that it's their behavior that makes the stim start and makes it stop as well. THEY'RE in the driver's seat. I will give a lot of credit to those trainers who have taught me a different philosophy in the work instead of "do it just because I said do it" as I used to work. But primarily it's because the dog learns how to make the stim stop.

Nancy wrote: It is hard for me to believe this is really painful to the dog if it is not to me

LC: The fact is that all mammals process pain in the same way. But just because given level isn't painful to you doesn't mean that it's not painful to a dog or even to another person. But what is controlling is that when you start from zero and slowly increase the stim until the dog shows you that he feels it, it's not at a painful level to that dog at that moment. All mammals respond to the sudden onset of pain in the same way. They move away from it quickly. Often, but not always, they vocalize. The most common reaction to a dog who's feeling a low level stim is to scratch as if a flea was biting him on the neck. To me, that hardly seems like pain. Pain is on a continuum from mild discomfort, "It's chilly I think I need a sweater." to extreme pain, "I can't stand that for another second!"

Nancy wrote: But I don't find the crittering technique to actually be a *correction* it is more the dog learning consequences of a behavior as opposed to being corrected for failing to perform a trained behavior when corrected.

LC: It's nothing but classical "behavior modification." It's similar to what's done at "stop smoking clinics." An unpleasant association is made between the aggression and the dog is shown how to make that discomfort stop.

LC: When stim levels are kept low dogs can keep thinking about what's happening to them. But when it's high, they can't. Think of the last time you smashed your thumb with a hammer while driving a nail or stood up under an open kitchen cabinet door. There's no conscious thought in your brain for quite some time. You know it hurts but you can't form a conscious thought to save your life. Now compare that to the last time that you hurt yourself in a minor way. What goes on in your head are two completely different things.