Alright I have a problem that I need some help with. I have a 8 month old GSD that I am training for Schutzhund. I have been doing the Flinks drive building and grip work with him and have started OB. Now as I understand it FLinks uses the ball to teach commands like sit and platz. My problem is this...after the dogs sits and I reward him with the ball I cannot get it back without outing him. Flinks and Ed also say not to out a dog more than once a session. How in the world am I supposed to repeat and reinforce this command if I have only one shot at it each training session. I must be missing something here. I would love a little help from you vets!!

will he trade for another ball or toy that he likes better, will he trade for food?

He will trade for another ball not food. My understanding from Flinks was that he should only out the ball he had is his mouth when told to and not for another ball. I am curious how others have handled this. I'm sure I'm not the first to face the dilema <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Add repetitions, before giving the reward. Do it several times a day. Each time add a repetition before you give the reward end the session with the reward.

i think it also depends on the mental maturity of your specific dog, some dogs can be outed at 8 months without causing a lot of conflict resulting in nervous stressful behavoir whereas some dogs are not mature enough mentally to handle being outed without unwanted nervousness and stressful behavoir. trading for another ball can be used for dogs that are mentally not mature enough to handle the out. also when i say trding, i mean entice the dog off of the first ball(toy) and divert its interest to the other ball(toy) and then once they have loosened their grip on the first toy, or let completely go of it, you put the initial ball(toy) in motion i.e. game on for the first toy, they never actually get the second toy, its only a distraction, that will eventually cease to work, buiilding a stronger more sound grip on the first prey item, and consequently resulting in a firmer inital grip and usually leads to a stronger carry as well.

the alternative is to carry after the reward and into my arms, carry, into my arms, then you can either play tug or carry again. remember in the video he suggests to a few handlers to always try to catch their dogs griping lazily on the prey item, and if you catch them you can try to rip it from their mouths quickly putting them back into to drive immediately, this also builds the grip. and it should only be done on dogs that are completely finished teething. so for your dog it should be ok as long as he isnt teething, carry with him, then into my arms then carry then into my arms, change it up, play tug in there some as well, if he is gripping poorly or lazy take it from him and put him into drive, if he is chewy calm him with your voice and hands.

He will only trade for another ball if I give him the second one. He has that trick figured out. I thought about doing a few reps and then giving it to him but I believe that Flinks teaches that you need to reward as soon as their but hits the ground to add speed to the excercise. I guess I will try having him do it a couple of times and then reward. Has anyone who has been to some of the Flinks seminars heard him discuss this training step?

watch the video again, he says i qoute "the better the training, the longer until the reward. he hopes it (ball) comes out. it just comes out later."

if your dog will trade if you are going to give him the other ball, then act like you are going to give it to him and then dont give it to him, put the initial ball back into motion, if for some reason he is just insistent on not trading then he may be ready for the out, in that case you can always rip the ball from his mouth during the carry, if your dog NEVER carries with a weak grip and always is gripping tightly, and wont trade for any other ball, believe that either you arent fast enough to rip it away, or your dog is one of the best 8 month old dogs in the world, or he is just ready to handle being outed some. either way, i feel that you should watch the video again, there are subtle things he only mentions under his breathe hat could really help you.

As an FYI, Those of us who have been to several of the Flinks seminars have discussed this exact subject in previous threads. You might want to use your "search" function and review those previous threads.

Thanks Travis. I don't think he is the best 8 month old in the world and in fact his grip is chewy when he carries the ball. I'm pretty quick but the problem may be that I am 6'6" and he can see my arm coming as I go to rip it out. Either way it rarely works. I guess I will just have to start training the out. I wanted to avoid this until his grip improved but it is tough to get the ball back otherwise.

Will- Sorry if you all have been over this. I don't want to waste anyones time repeating topics. I did try to search it and found some related topics but not this one. You don't happen to remember the name of the thread or some of the keywords that would bring up the discussion? Thanks for the help.