I think the tools (ecollar, prong) can be very helpful and have used Lou's techniques for chasing critters and coming when called to GREAT satisfaction but I like the clicker for crate barking.

for that first you make an association with the clicker by just clicking the darned thing several times (maybe 20 or so - look for recognition on their part that click = food), each time tossing them a peice of food. Then put in crate and every time you hear a moment of quiet, click and treat so the dog associates being quiet in the crate with good things. It does seem to help us with crate barking in the car at other dogs going by so I think it would help for crate barking for fun (if a more fun alternative was provided).

One thing I HAVE seen about clicker techniques for behavior mod is that it does take more time and effort than correction techniques and, not knowing your dog, some dogs can really shut down with harsh corrections -- at least I think they are worth a try. IOW this would not be fixed in one evening but over the course of several days.

I tried the bark collar but my dog *figured out* how to get around it (I have a Petsafe model with multiple stim levels, perhaps the more expensive ones are better?) She learned to modulate the frequency and pitch of her bark to avoid the shock. So if you go that route, get a good recommendation HERE and be prepared to pay what it is worth.

You may also want to put his crate in an area where he can see and hear family activity and crate him some for short periods while you are right there. Lots of strong positive associations with being in the crate.

Lou. I just didn't like the idea of using any kind of shock collar on a puppy that's so young. I especially didn't want such a negative association with barking, since I want to PP train him. I WANT him to bark. There was nothing for me to really tolerate with the barking because his crate was moved into the basement where I couldn't hear it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I just knew that he'd been barking a lot because his voice was hoarse when I took him out of the crate. I did try everything else that I found suggested on the board. He just really liked to hear himself bark.

There's nothing wrong with trying the techniques suggested, including the one for clicking when the dog is quiet, but some dogs just won't respond to them.

As far as wanting the dog to bark during PP and the fear of him associating the stim with barking, it's groundless. The bark collar is only on in the crate and there's no PP work that 's done there. Any problem that may arise from this can be overcome in a very short time. In fact most dogs will continue to bark in the crate until the bark collar is put on, then they stop.

Better quality Ecollars work better than cheap ones, and this includes bark collars. But even so some dogs learn to make other noises than barking that they don't stop. But those noises aren't nearly as bothersome as the barking.

As far as not liking to use any kind of a shock collar on a puppy; as with any other form of correction training, it's the dog that picks his level of correction. If it's not uncomfortable, he'll continue to do as he pleases. But as soon as it passes his threshold of discomfort, he'll stop.