Well, since the only dogs considered to be 'native' in the Philippines are the medium-sized primitive dogs I've mentioned, dog training and such can only come from abroad. Not to mention the Philippines is sort of Americanized anyway. The PCCI feels more like the AKC than anything else! And apart from the Malinois, I don't even want to know where the other dogs come from. I see so much bad examples of each breed, all kenneled up outside their homes treated like nothing more than an expensive car, and bred sooner or later, that I don't even want to talk about purebred dogs there...

Although I do know a breeder/club of sorts that I saw in the internet located in the Philippines whose regime has a 'touch' of the country in it, being that they train out in the local woods and use coconut trees and stuff for their courses.

Not to mention PUDA uses stuffed socks for puppy tugs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kay wrote,

 Quote:

I just say this because from what I've learned so far if a dog's confidence hasn't been built on prey, and is purely defense, it can be scared off much faster. But like I said, it's just a comment. I know a lot of other (name withheld) kennels in the US that go with defense training as well.

But if the dog is scared of more easily obviously the training performed is wrong and not the "method" of starting with defence instead of prey for dogs with less prey and play. I mean a dog should get more confident and strong during his training, not more afraid and unshure of himself, or more unpredictable and dangerous for his environment outside the trainingfield, like a "fearbiter" would.

Also there was a comment what will happen if a person is many meters away from you and runs away and what if you don´t have prey then and what drive a dog is performing in then. A properly trained dog should attack on your command not depending on trigger like a person running away. I mean what if you have a person standing still 20 meters away and points a gun at you, then the dog better attack when you say so, not depending on "prey-triggers".
What drive a dog use then I guess is less important to know, only that he get the job done <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Stig,

How do you reliably obtain long distance in attacks on passive helpers using defense only?

I've heard about this a bunch, have tried it once or twice, but I have never obtained the reliability that I have using prey during the initial stages...

Evidently, a passive helper is not introduced in the beginning stages...either in defense or prey based bite training.

I'm very interested in this method...could you elaborate a bit on dog selection, training method, and specific milestone goals?

Thanks

Andres,

Using defence only in the finished product is not what I mean, if the dog has zero prey and fightdrive I guess it will see no meaning in attacking a person who aren´t a direct threat, like a running suspect or a passive person.
Just that some dogs have no intresst in preygames and are more serious from the start, and that these dogs need a different approach than then commonly used method of lots of preygames during the uppbringing of the dog. Also that the level of prey and fight the dog do have will come naturally when the dog grows in confidence. I mean most decent dogs have at least some level of fightdrive in them. Otherwise it would be difficult to develop a good bite, because a dog working purely in defence will just slash and tear to make the "threat" go away. But as I said before we must look at the whole dog, a good dog will have a combination of different drives that interacts, and even in theory we can´t just choose one drive and say "what if a dog has little prey, is it useless then as a PP-dog", not if the dog as a whole has good qualities like courage, defence,fightdrive and sharpness and so on I would say.

But for a strictly PP-dog there is really no need for sending them after a running person, and a passive person you don´t really need a lot of prey for attacking, if you define prey as going after different moving objects and grasping them. Because I´m sure you have seen dogs that have no desire to play bitegames with a helper or you, but if challanged will bite with a serious attitude and a strong bite.

I would also say that I´m no guru on these things, just telling you the general principles I´ve learn when disscussing methods with instructors that have a lot´s of experience with servicedogs of protectiontype. I´m also not advocating these methods over others, just adapting the method of what fits you and your dog best. If someone have a dog who are more serious in type with quite a lot of sharpness, it´s also demands more responsibility and control from the owner, than the dog working mainly in prey like many sportdogs do.

Stig,

I agree with all your assesments.

Thanks.

I am from South Africa and I trained both my PPD dogs in the schutzhund, protection routine, all the foundation work was done in prey drive, they were switched to defence when they were older,when chasing the decoy/helper, they seem to start the chase in prey drive and once they got the bite and working in close to the decoy/helper switch to a more defensive position, I am not sure why, or whether it is unique to the method of training or dog specific.They were females,with the male pup, I am working now,it is different he seems to have a lot of prey drive, but when working in the dark seems,to be a lot sharper,stops barks at people on the side etc, has anyone experienced this, Can the fact that we are working into the evening be affecting the drives/ behaviour like this? he is also working only in prey currently.Any thoughts?

Unfortunately you're responding to a thread with the last reply about *seven* months ago, that usually doesn't make for a good chance for a reply. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ya'll, when you see these long dead threads, honestly - just start a new one, you'll tend to get better replies...just the nature of forums. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />