We have an 8-9 yr old shep/lab mix, Bart who we got from a shelter 2+yrs ago. He had dominance agression problems that Ed's training and this forum have helped much with. Our little dog recently died and last week we got another shelter dog- shep/husky mix, Indy. She is 1 1/2-2 yrs old. Now we are going through the training dvds again and have come to the section on living with multiple dogs. This may seem like a stupid question, but here goes:
In the video it says to greet and show affection to the higher ranking dog first. Now when the dogs are used to each other and able to be together all the time without problems, do WE as the pack leaders decide which one of them is higher in rank? Because Bart is the original dog, do we show attention to him first? She is younger and really displaying that she wants to lead- she tries to go through doors and up and down stairs ahead of us but we don't let her- even if she just "thinks" we are going to go upstairs she makes a dash for it to go up before us...
Thank you for any input.
Carolmartine

You are actually asking two questions here; one about rank order including humans, and one excluding humans.

Obviously, humans have to be decision makers in a pack situation. Anything that reinforces that without confrontation or violence is a good thing. If an important official came to your house, you would defer to him or her, even if you don't realize it. It is part of human behaviour, which is, in some ways, simular to canine social behaviour (but is MUCH more complex); ie, we recognize and respond to centralized authourity. Which is the reason why most communes fail. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

With two dogs, you must learn to recognize, by their body language, who is higher in rank. The clues can be subtle. Remember, eliciting play is submissive, a holdout from puppy behaviours. Initiating play is dominant; the animal that is higher in rank decides when, and for how long, the play continues.

We are using Ed's training dvd and web articles to help get Bart and Indy used to each other. In the DVD it says to keep the dogs crated or otherwise separated and eventually the original dog accepts the new one as part of the family pack. They have been doing ok, occasionally meeting each other, but the new one seems to be trying to establish herself as leader.
She seems to do things to intimidate Bart and when she is in the crate, if he goes by she barks at him. Ed said to try covering the crate with a blanket and that has helped. I am ordering a prong coller for her today. If she is upstairs and he is downstairs, he doesn't want to come up.
Also, on the training tape, it said to show the dominant dog greeting and affection first- it was a little confusing which dog was the dominant one. At first I thought it was the one the lady first petted, until a bit later when she petted the other one first. If a dog stands still and looks apprehansive when another dog is sniffing it, does that mean the sniffer is the dominant one? How about if one licks the other in the mouth?
Thank you for any input, Carolamrtine

Melissa, please educate me on the signs you are speaking of and how is initiating and illiciting play different in appearance? Please excuse spelling errors- Carolmartine

Eliciting play is to generate interest.
Initiating play means the attention is there or not needed, 'we are going to play now'.

Adult submissive dogs don't generally initiate play with a dominant pack member, they will solicit. There will be a brief moment of solicitation, in which the dominant dog will acknowledge the play behaviours and either ignore the other dog, thereby ending the interaction; or engage. A dog higher in pack order can initiate or elicit play, and is the one who decides when play is over.

But all this is rather academic; and is best see with dogs who have settled rank order. Dominance is not a fixed thing, with immutable rules; each dog has a personal leadership style, based on their personality. Some try to rule with an iron fist (they tend to be less secure individuals, as in humans), some are more permissive leaders, but woe to the pack member who crosses the line!

All of this is less important than your leadership; because the dogs will follow your initiative, and respect the boundries that you put in place. Be aware, tho, that a 1.5 yr old dog might have a little more pack drive than your 8yr old; make sure there is no 'teenager bullying the old man/lady' stuff going on; or inversly, 'cranky old man/lady teaching the whippersnapper a lesson'. If the new dog is more comfortable being top dog, and the older dog is ok with that, or vice versa, then your problems are solved. The problems come when one dog refuses to submit, or the humans decide to elevate (give more perks) the status of a subordinate dog.

But to answer your question lol, the dog that freezes in place and looks 'apprehensive' (actually is telling the other dog 'look how small and still I am, investigate all you want..puppy behaviour). Look at head and tail carriage; frontal, erect posture is a sign of confidence and leadership, but tiptoe and hackles are not. Who walks through doors first, who sits square in front of you for a treat, and who is off to the side (when they are together, dont try this yet), who starts and ends play sessions (the dialogue would go something like this):

Dom dog: hey, lets play!
Sub dog:no I really don't....
Dd: nope sorry, time to play now!

or

sub dog: wanna play? come on, can we?
dom dog: ok, but only for a a second. There is this bush I've been meaning to sniff...or NO..grrrr/blank stare, into the horizon.

Yea, kinda silly. And during play you will see a lot of role reversal, so don't take it into account.

'The Dog's Mind' is a good reference book for this type of stuff. A lot of the material is extrapolated from wolf research, but remember, a dog is not a wolf, any more than a cat is a cheetah. You can have a general idea about what is going on with your dog, but dogs have been separated from wolves for 10,000 years; some behaviours are still there, and some have withered away through breeding selection.

Be aware of your attitude, allow no inter pack aggression, and in a few months, rank will be obvious. To get good at this, study a group of teenagers hanging out. Who is the most insecure? Who is the decision maker? Who is second in command, and how do they relate to those above and below in order (beta groups are the most interesting, and least stable of all groups)? Who is the out cast, or last in the group? Humans are much more complex than dogs, but some of the observations are relevant to both. It is facinating....

Can you tell I have an interest in human and canine societies? yeesh.

This comes from direct observation of my dogs (I have three, loose in the house); I don't have Eds tape, so I can't comment on it.

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Be aware of your attitude, allow no inter pack aggression, and in a few months, rank will be obvious.

When you say allow no inter-pack aggression, do you mean to correct the more dominant dog for 'correcting' the subordinate dog?

In my opinion, and in my pack, I am the only one with the rights to 'correct', because I am the one that sets the boundries in the first place. I am carefully observant of my dogs, and treat each acording to their rank, which reinforces the rank order, and makes a more stable pack.

If a dominant dog has to 'correct' a subordinant dog (unless it was an accident, ie sliding across the floor and goofed by bumping into higher rank dog), the subordinant dog is not as subordinant as you think; dogs are careful observers of pack order, and their cues are rapid and subtle to each other. Humans, with the faculty of speech, tend to be a little on the 'less aware' side of non verbal communication when observing others.

So, if a dog has to correct another dog, I think you still have unsettled rank issues in the pack. A truly subordinant dog doesn't get out of line unless it was an accident (and suprisingly few of these are real accidents).

Besides, why allow aggression, when a cold, stiff look will do between the dogs?

And also, leadership is also given, not just taken. A dominant dog does not force the subordinant to bare the belly and throat; the subordinant dog actually offers it. Important distiction.

Melissa, you said: Can you tell I have an interest in human and canine societies? yeesh---- Yes Melissa! You might get a kick out of this. I never knew anything about pack order stuff and dominace in dogs until we got Bart- that's alot of years to have no idea about dog behavior except the wrong stuff- society these days surrounds us with so much false information about animals in very subtle ways that start at very early ages---some times it is forgotten that they are animals and not people.
This is something I found interesting. Are you familiar with RAD? Reactive Attachment Disorder? Well, we have been educated on this quite a bit the last few years and when we got Bart, well, so many of his behaviors were just like classic RAD behaviors. I was thinking, "Wow! This is a shelter dog who spent 7 years with his owner (who was gone all day) and then left at a shelter- he feels abandoned and rejected...do dogs get attachment disorder?" Well, after lots of prayer, I called a vet friend who also knows alot about RAD, and told him what was going on. He gently set me straight and started my education on pack animal behaviors, though he did see where the behaviors were similar, he said it was dominance issues. He asked all kinds of questions and started explaining things- boy did things make sense then. Then we found Ed's site and got his first film and he mentioned a relative that was a child psychologist and I thought,"I wonder if he knows about RAD and has seen the similarities in behaior with dominant dog behavior?" Sorry for rambling, but I thought since you are interested in people and animals I could share it with you.
Indy, the new dog got her stitches from the spay out today and the tech said that we can let the dogs know which one is going to be higher in rank by feeding, playing and showing attention to that one first. Any input on this? She does seem like the teenager you mentioned. I am trying to follow Ed's advice as much as possible. Thank you, Carolmartine