QUOTING WILL: You can train and train the dog, but on the street where there are so many variables ( many of which you can not train for safely ), the outcome is never 100% certain ( that the dog will reliably out on command ).
I doubt that there's a K-9 Officer with over a year's experience that hasn't run into this at one time or the other.END

Yep, excellent point. I think he (the trainer) figures that the better and more solid the training is, the better the chances on the street.......but I've seen on-the-spot videos taken by the police on which the amazingly well-trained dog gave in to his adrenaline and had to be dragged off. You're so correct: They are not machines, any more than their trainers are.

Someone had wondered whether police dog training involved out commands with an active/fighting decoy.

Ok. One more question/comment:

While having lunch today with Adam, I brought this up to him and he said he wouldn't want the dog to learn to out a fighting person. He made (what I thought was) a good point that the dog wouldn't be chewing on the person, or biting and re-biting, but rather just holding on. If the person didn't listen to him or me telling them to be still and the dog would be called off, then they deserve to have the dog hold onto them for however long it takes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> The dog really isn't doing anything but holding on, so if they're stupid enough to keep fighting, let them keep fighting and leave the dog on the bite until they finally realize that the dog is going to stay there until they stop fighting.

Thoughts?

QUOTE: While having lunch today with Adam, I brought this up to him and he said he wouldn't want the dog to learn to out a fighting person. END

But it's out on command only, right? I guess an example with a police dog might be that the subject is struggling against the dog but the officer now has his firearm trained on the subject, so he gives the out command. "Stop fighting the dog" probably does not always get immediate results.

Also, I'm thinking that PPD training might differ on some points from police-dog training.........any comments?

Dogs should release when told to.
Bad guys aren't subject to what they "deserve" through police action. That is the job of the courts and the legistlative bodies which define the laws and the penalties for breaking them.
It is a police function to find and apprehhend the suspects of crimes and to do it within the guidelnies that we can interpret based on the courts and the policies of our individual departments.
This is why a police dog shoudl release whenever told to.
If a dog is interjected into a situation and is ineffective you need to be able to retrieve him safely (the reality is that there are people out there who aren't effected by a dog bite, due to narcotics and or alcohol use, mental and physical states etc.).
It goes a long ways toward officer safety to be able to have your dog release when you say so.
How that release is accomplished depends on the situation, tactics employed, environment, proximity to the handler, etc.
Are there rare times when you can't tell your dog to release??? Yes, a suspect may wrap your dog up, cause pain and injury to a dog making the dog fearful may inhibit the dogs resposiveness to being told to release. These things take a well prepared team to deal with.

 Quote:

If prudent on a public forum like this, I'd like to hear Kevin Sheldahl's ideas on out training and outs as they relate to police tactics.

Kevin, do you train your dogs to out off of an active subject?

I view sporting "outs" as an active command, that can be kept "in drive" by providing a re-bite in short order - at first, and then lengthening the time frame. For this, I would agree with Robert Van Camp's post. Elliciting the first behaviors (outs) without compulsion applies to both sets of dogs.

For personal protection, where teams, professionalism, legal issues don't usually come into play, there may be some leeway for the outs. Under regular circumstances, most PPD bite "in the home" anyway, and there's an "intruder" somehow.

For official use, I see the out as a major compulsion command - for the reasons made explicit by Lou Castle. Progressive training up to releasing a "fighting" and uncontrolled let's say...hostage...child...homeless person...would be very important. More so if the handler can't leave cover.

The major compulsion for the out I think can be alleviated by being followed immediately by a drive command such as "down" (I think of "down" this way). It may be important to be able to re direct a dog after the out for another bite.

E-collars are what I have used...saying the command and increasing the stimulation as a function of time, rather quickly until I get the out. It's important to note that only very good dogs should be in this anyway...so they're more difficult to "ruin"...incidentally, I don't see this as a realm exclusive to the high prey dogs. In fact, they may be significantly more difficult to handle.

I have seen dogs that hesitate to bite people in closets; that stay stuck on a t-shirt...and not the man; that approach a passive subject and don't engage...and that have been high-drive dogs...apparently...but at the end of the day were not "balanced". As Will says, real life is different than training...that's why I asked specifically about training...not about what happens in real life.

Finally, I think it's important to be able to out - reliably - a dog at a distance to enable the handler to not have to leave cover, because if it's only one handler with his dog, and the "bad guy" surrenders, just holding a person at gun point for...let's say...20 minutes, is VERY tiring and uncomfortable. A dog will burn out far sooner.

Regarding this latter point...I'll start a new thread...called "Fight Times".

Some people I have seen enlist the help of a third party, using the remote, or the prongs...the latter from besides the "bad guy", from behind, through the legs, and so on. This way, the dog and handler use extremities much the same as in real life.

Further thoughts would be appreciated.

 Quote:

The trainer that comes up with a way to train for a 100% reliable out under all circumstances without having ruined the dog's ability to deliver a meaningful bite will end up a rich man.

You can never guarantee anything to a 100% level of reliability, not even simple OB, much less an out during a fight without the ability to correct a dog that doesn't comply.

If the dog has been trained with an Ecollar and is wearing one, you can get compliance even when he ignores the first command.

When do the riches start rolling in?

 Quote:

While having lunch today with Adam, I brought this up to him and he said he wouldn't want the dog to learn to out a fighting person. He made (what I thought was) a good point that the dog wouldn't be chewing on the person, or biting and re-biting, but rather just holding on. If the person didn't listen to him or me telling them to be still and the dog would be called off, then they deserve to have the dog hold onto them for however long it takes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> The dog really isn't doing anything but holding on, so if they're stupid enough to keep fighting, let them keep fighting and leave the dog on the bite until they finally realize that the dog is going to stay there until they stop fighting.
Thoughts?

I don't know who Adam is but I hope he's not training any police dogs and that he's quite wealthy. He's going to be paying out lots of money on dog bite lawsuits with that attitude.

What does he suggest for the suspect or the innocent person who has been bitten by the dog and can't hold still because it hurts too much? Wait till they pass out? How about the police officer who's been bitten. Wait for him to shoot the dog? Even the worst criminal has the right not to have excessive force used on him during his arrest.

In some circumstances a police officer will leave the dog on the bite until the suspect is handcuffed. But those situations are rare and must be well justified. Both tactically and from a legal standpoint, it's usually best to out the dog and then let other officers take the suspect into custody.

I've long said that if you don't have control, you don't have tactics. A dog that won't release a bite from someone who's actively fighting him shouldn't be deployed on the street.

We aren't in law enforcement, Lou. Our dog is just going to be my personal protection dog. Adam is my husband.

QUOTE from further back in the thread: If prudent on a public forum like this, I'd like to hear Kevin Sheldahl's ideas on out training and outs as they relate to police tactics.END

This thread had started focusing on fast out as it relates to police dog training; I think that's why your post in the middle of a group of police dog training discussion generated some puzzlement. Not trying to speak for anyone else....just me. I had a similar reaction to Mr. Castle's but he replied faster!