QUOTE from Lou: Andres, your suggestion to take the dog to the bites by the collar and then move up and down the leash is very good. It's just a form of, as you say, desensitization, teaching the dog that reaching for the leash doesn't always mean a correction is coming. END

From a newbie (me): I didn't know what "spinning the decoy" meant when I read the first post, so I waited for the replies to clue me in. Do I have this right: The dog deliberately spins the decoy so the dog's leash is harder for the trainer to grab.......either because the decoy is now in the way of the trainer reaching for the leash, or because the dog is moving himself out of the trainer's reach by spinning the decoy?

And then one recommendation involved demonstrating to the dog that the leash-grab does not necessarily mean a correction, right?

Connie, You pretty much have it right. The dog spins the decoy to avoid the handler, thus allowing him to bite longer for self satisfaction. The dog knows that when the handler approaches, the out is coming. Not only is the out coming, but a correction as well in most cases. Andres' suggestion to desensitize the dog by placing him on the bite in various places while having contact with the dog,is very good. The dog learns there is no negative event during the out. To move further from the dog during the bite drills instills control and no avoidance, thus a clean and prompt out.

Howard

Can I add a quick problem to this as well. I Also have a new MAL, he turned 2 years old next week. He also spins to avoid me while he is on the bite, and he does not out. We did our certs the other day, he held a down, his call off was GREAT!!! The only thing he did wrong was not out right away. Usually he will out on command and then re-bite, or wont out at all. When he is on a leash and I have it he will promptly out on command. When I drop the leash he will out until he realizes I don't have the leash. On the E-Collar dog does it every time. But when you take the collar or leash off he knows and wont out. He is a smart dog, any ideas on what I can do. I love the idea of working up and down the leash and I do that, now getting him to out is the problem. I have been told the reason is the bond I have with the dog. I have only had him about 6 to 7 months but I was told if we had a good bond he will out every time. I am not sure about this because I am new to this stuff. Any ideas anyone???????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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When he is on a leash and I have it he will promptly out on command. When I drop the leash he will out until he realizes I don't have the leash. On the E-Collar dog does it every time. But when you take the collar or leash off he knows and wont out.

Ryan somehow in your training you've taught the dog that if you don't have the ability to correct him, he doesn't have to obey your commands. This is very easy to do with the leash but now as easy to do with the Ecollar. Usually it's the result of putting it on, doing some training and immediately removing it. But it can happen even if the Ecollar isn't removed right after training especially if you stop using it before the behavior has become a habit.

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He is a smart dog, any ideas on what I can do.

They're all smart and will take cues from things you don't even realize you're doing. I'd suggest that you put the Ecollar on the dog in the morning (or when you come home from work) and leave it on until bedtime. Call him over to you several times a day and move it around to avoid him getting friction sores. You might also take a look at the SCG device, designed to prevent sores on dogs who wear the Ecollar for long periods of time. At random times throughout the day, use it to enforce a command he already knows. I'd also suggest that you go back to square one and teach the recall with it (as described in the article on my website) instead of merely using it to enforce the recall that was taught with another method.

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I have been told the reason is the bond I have with the dog. I have only had him about 6 to 7 months but I was told if we had a good bond he will out every time.

If it was necessary to have a bond with a dog to get him to out, I'd never be able to get a strange (to me) dog that I was working with, to out cleanly. Yet I've had no such trouble. I'd suggest that you go back and teach the recall with the Ecollar. Then, instead of giving the out command call him to you with the recall command. Later, when he's reliable, you can give any command that you like, sit, down, etc. and he'll perform that. The initial problem is to get him to stop biting. Most forms of getting the out involving corrections also bring along with them conflict, and I think it's best if conflict is avoided in your training.

Lou,

I read the article and I am going to give it a try, I just have one question so I understand clearly. The recall, how is that going to help the out part of it?

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The recall, how is that going to help the out part of it?

It helps a couple of ways. First of all it's something that should always be pleasant to the dog, something he likes to do no matter what else is going on, going to the handler should be pleasurable. Second, most training with corrections introduces conflict into the out. The dog has caught and is in the act of "killing" the prey and suddenly you come up and want to take it away from him. He wants to hang on but you want him to let go. Think about how many hours you spent getting him to bite hard and to hold on, no matter what the decoy does to the dog. Now suddenly you want the dog to release that hold!

A dog can't recall and stay on the bite; so he has to release the bite but you're not taking it from him. This is best done with two decoys and as soon as he releases one of them you send him on the second one. This is NOT the Volhard "Two Decoy Reward System." The dog is NOT being rewarded for releasing the bite and getting another one quickly. After a few back and forths the dog will anticipate being sent on the next decoy and will run past you to bite him. At this time you give the recall command and a stim, and call him back to you. Do a few minutes of OB and then send him again. I like to end this with a search so that the dog learns that this isn't just OB for the sake of OB. It's NOT "Just do it because I said do it." OB becomes part of the search.

This is a very shortened description of how I work this and if you'd like more details, let me know and we can set up a phone call.