while exploring the forums yesterday i came across the discussion about cesar millan and his "dog whisperer" show. with so many raves about him and with the respect that ed paid to him in those conversations, i was very interested to learn more about him.

after reading millan's website, i feel quite confused. his philosophy of working with dogs seems to be extremely different from ed's or from what is recommended in these pages, overall.

millan always works with his dogs in packs. they are never on a leash. he doesn't give commands, he's almost entirely non-verbal. his focus is on fulfilling the dogs' needs, especially for intense exercise.

conversely, the leerburg philosophy as i understand it is that dogs must not be allowed to become packs, they must be on a leash all the time, or nearly so, and dogs are commanded and must obey, by force if necessary. dogs are confined for extended periods.

and yet ed endorses millan's work. i wonder how to make sense of this? both men's philosophies make sense to me in different ways.

for example, i agree about the problems created by a dog becoming too "doggie" and how it interferes with the dog/human bond.

but i also see how when i take my dog backpacking with me and my husband, the dog seems deeply fulfilled by exploring the mountains with us for days, and letting us lead him into an adventure. he also seems to have a powerful need for the companionship of other dogs.

it would be great if ed could comment. i wonder if millan is changing his own philosophy of dog rearing, or if not, how he finds the two methods compatible.

I think the biggest difference is that Cesar works primarily with pets, while Ed works primarily with working dogs that are not just housepets.

 Quote:

millan always works with his dogs in packs. they are never on a leash. he doesn't give commands, he's almost entirely non-verbal. his focus is on fulfilling the dogs' needs, especially for intense exercise.

conversely, the leerburg philosophy as i understand it is that dogs must not be allowed to become packs, they must be on a leash all the time, or nearly so, and dogs are commanded and must obey, by force if necessary. dogs are confined for extended periods.

Cesar does not always work with his dogs in packs and off lead. What you don't see on the show and on the website is all of his work with the dogs individually before they are allowed to become part of the 'pack.' He DOES teach his dogs obedience and he does use a leash, but what you are seeing is the 'finished product,' so to speak. A lot of work has to be done with each individual dog before they can live harmoniously with one another as a pack (especially because many of them are rescued fighting pit bulls).

And I don't think the Leerburg philosophy is to keep your dog confined to a crate or on a lead all the time. This is just in the beginning, when the dog is learning how and how not to behave appropriately in the house and out in public. I don't think Ed has said anywhere that you must confine your dog to a crate forever.

Reading Millan's website and watching him in action with dominant and aggressive dogs are two different things entirely.

I don't think you'll see much deviance in methodologies between Millan and other dog trainers who have good experience with dominant and aggressive dogs, be that Ed or any good working dog trainer. The ways in which he deals with and treats the dominance and aggression is great, but his goal is to eliminate it.

Working dog trainers want controlled aggression and dominance. We ENCOURAGE it. You can't realy do that and then expect your dog to live as any other pet should live. There are some differences in training and application that will be based on your goals and your dog's temperament.

The remarkable thing about Millan is that he does seem to understand very well both dominance and aggression. Many MANY pet trainers and behaviorists don't have a stinking clue.

I think a major difference between Cesar and "trainers" is that he focus's on creating balance and peace in the mind of the dog. He does this by teaches dog owners how to incorporate exercise, pack leadership (dicipline) and reward (affection). He doesn't do obedience training. He teaches people how to co-exist with dogs. I don't think his methods are easily transferable to trainers let alone pet owners. He can read dogs very well.

 Quote:

Reading Millan's website and watching him in action with dominant and aggressive dogs are two different things entirely. I don't think you'll see much deviance in methodologies between Millan and other dog trainers who have good experience with dominant and aggressive dogs, be that Ed or any good working dog trainer. .........
The remarkable thing about Millan is that he does seem to understand very well both dominance and aggression. Many MANY pet trainers and behaviorists don't have a stinking clue.

Gotta jump in here.......I've watched him twice in action now (besides practically memorizing his TV episodes!), and everything Robert VanCamp says is exactly right.

And yes, Millan is working primarily with (1) pets, not working dogs, and (2) problem dogs, not normal dogs who need a little training.

Once that's said, then I don't see any real fundamental difference in attitude at all between his and that on the the Leerburg tapes. His mantra is "exercise, discipline and affection" (in that order) along with "calm assertive leadership" for the handler.

He comes across as a magician sometimes (in person as well as on the National Geographic program "The Dog Whisperer") because, as Robert VanCamp says, he understands dominance and aggression 100%. He has a long history of pack structure study besides a ton of practical experience.

Obviously, I'm a big fan, but if you watched him in person, I think you'd have to agree. He tends to stick close to home and his own pack and facility, but if you ever do get a chance to attend a seminar, I think you'd be glad you did it.

I think they learn from one another quicker than they learn from us, so if you have one who knows what is, it can assist you to train another, by example. I've seen it work with two, often. Never tried more, and would guess it's a whole other dimension of risk in terms of 'dogginess' becoming a hinderance...though if 2 out 3 were well trained, and sociable, peer pressure would assist as well in training a 3rd.

I had an email discussion years ago with a lady who ran a GSD rescue. She said all dogs are either 'people' focused
or 'dog' focused, and if you had one, you'd do well to look for the other if choosing a second. That might make sense,
were it not a falacy of bifurcation.

saying leerburg and cesar are so different is one too.

there's more shades of grey than black and white.

Speaking of which...

.. so we are in MD for the PSA Nats, go to a seafood place to eat tonight and the dude is in there LOL!

...was pretty funny.

Sammy,
Good luck up there buddy, Keep us posted! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />