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Do you think (in your experience) that handler aggressive dogs tend to be a less social bunch with other people than non handler aggressive dogs?

I think not necessarily...because the majority of the handler aggressive dogs I have seen don't seem to have a particularly strong bond with their handler, or with anyone else for that matter...they act quite independently, based on drive and conditioning.

But just to cover my rear <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I also think that a handler aggressive dog will be more likely to be aggressive to anyone that goes against his wishes, handler or whomever.

Have you ever seen handler aggressive dogs that you would think are super social? That will jump all over you and your friends, that goose the living daylights out of anything "goosable" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> , that feel free to take away your food or your friends'...but that when you stop them...their eyes turn green? These dogs are fine "socially", as long as everyone does what THEY want.

Sammy, I think I'm more comfortable thinking that a dog that is very bonded with his family, very "pack", will tend to be more aggressive to strangers...not the handler aggressive dog, which I would consider a MUCH more independent dog.

I tend to agree with you... I was just thinking out loud. Although sometimes I think handler aggression stems from frustration (as has been said already) and usually only shows up on the training field.

I think most handler aggressive dogs are made by the handler . But genetics always plays a role to some degree . There are some dogs you would have to make alot of mistakes with to turn that dog into a handler aggressive dog . But then there are others that it doesn't take much of a mistake at all to make that dog become handler aggressive .

This is just 1 of those , "Which came first the chicken or the egg?" questions . No one has any solid answers just strong opinions .

For those that think their training is so good they could never find themselves having a dog show aggression towards them , my only response is keep training more dogs and you will find out if that is true or not .

Logic dictates that the dog was born before he could be handler aggressive, therefore the genetics came first. I don't mean to disrespect, but there's no chicken or egg question there. It's cristal clear that genetics play the leading role.

You say some dogs take all the abuse, spoiling, and everything in between, and are never handler aggressive, yet with others all it takes is a few mistakes...

I would like to add to that...that pure positive reinforcement training for strong dogs, as well as escape training with e collars - both methods which allow the dog to "discover" what works, and disenfranchise the dog from the handler - also contribute to RAISING dogs with less than desirable respect for the handler. So the issue is not whether a dominant dog will show aggression as a pup or adult towards its handler...the issues are why and how, and if the handler will correct soon enough, hard enough.

and...

Corrections MUST exist and they MUST come from the handler...

THAT last part was a strong opinion... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

How does positive reinforcement disenfranchise a dog from his handler? I don't see that at all. I think that it helps with a strong dog learning that all things come from the handler and that he has to go thru the handler to get what he wants. I think that many people misread their dog, forget that a correction is an interruption of the behavior and wail on their dog. How dare he come up at me like that. If they get a truely strong dog, and not just a wannabe, then it is game on. Over estimating a strong corrections worth is very evident here on this board. If they really had the dogs they think they have, they would be in the hospital with serious injurys. And would probably stop training that dog. I haven't seen a post that asks what can I do to create a strong bond with my dog. People are in a hurry. A strong dog will screw you up bad for overcorrections. If he submits to your abuse, he is not a strong dog. Something to think about. Anything more than what it takes to interrupt the behavior is abuse.

Positive reinforcement DOES not disenfranchise at all...it's the basis of a dog - handler bond. I strongly agree with you that as a general rule people have no patience...for dog training and for a bunch of other stuff. First inclination is to correct via punishment. This goes for dogs, kids, co-workers, employees, and so on. PURE, exclusive...positive reinforcement ( I think ) does disenfranchise a dog from his handler, because the dog is allowed - whenever a new situation arises - to experiment. Under quite a few circumstances, this (I think) is not appropriate for a strong ADULT dog.

I fully understand the idea behind picking your fights, and then only those you can win...for a sport dog, and perhaps for some pets, but that's it for me. For PPD and PSD dogs MUST obey, regardless of competing rewards. I believe that a dog can get to maturity without tampering his drives AND fully knowing that he must respect you because all good things come from you, but so do the corrections.

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I think that many people misread their dog, forget that a correction is an interruption of the behavior and wail on their dog.

I agree fully. A lighter correction will be necessary to interrupt strong handler challenge on a pup, right?

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Over estimating a strong corrections worth is very evident here on this board.

It depends for what, right?

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I haven't seen a post that asks what can I do to create a strong bond with my dog

I have your same philosophy in that regard. Most of the dog related difficulties are easily surpassed if you have a strong bond with your dog. I think a handler aggressive dog is NOT one that will react to your stupidity (over corrections, emotional outbursts, yells, corrections without stress relief, etc.) because he just can't help it, but one that will challenge you because he really couldn't give a rat's ass about you.

Quote:I think a handler aggressive dog is NOT one that will react to your stupidity (over corrections, emotional outbursts, yells, corrections without stress relief, etc.) because he just can't help it, but one that will challenge you because he really couldn't give a rat's ass about you.

Not giving a crap about you is exactly my point. I think that there are so many ways to make yourself important to your dog. I also agree that there is a time and place for corrections, after the dog has learned thru PR training. I agree that they have to listen, even if they are "sport" dogs. Hard to get points if your dog is out there inventing new exersizes with the decoy! I find that a good way to get a dog to figure out that I am important is to take him off the field for not listening. I just turn around and go.

Any unwanted aggression towards me has a begining, and that is how it gets messy. I have always found a way to get past it without escalating it. Maybe someday I will get a true butthead, but I have had some really powerful animals in the past, and always dodged that bullet.