Hi, i remember a thread( couldn't locate it) where there was a discussion about not teaching "stay", because if your dog was put into a down and moved, the dog broke the down, and thats it. my 2 adults were taught the stay, my new dog (elvis) is 6 mo. old and really likes obedience, he's better than my other 2 at that age, but if i take one step away, he breaks and sits in front of me. right now we're strictly motavational, treats or flying squirrel or ball, and if he knows the item is behind my back, he has a hard time holding the down for more than about 10 seconds, am i asking to much? or are there some tips anyone knows? the only way, right now to keep him down, is to do like Ed Frawly does in the video, by throwing the food on the ground, then he stares at the ground, waiting for magic food to appear, lol, also it seems the squirrel makes it hard for him to focus, should i not use it till we're done learning the down? he's pretty young and immature <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />so i don't think it's time to start adding corrections for awhile, so if anyone has any good tips i'd like to hear them, thanks,
AL

I'd stop hiding the toy behind your back or anywhere else. Get him in drive for the toy, give him the sit or down command, wait a few seconds and give him the release and a bite on the toy and a short fight. Then build up the time the dog holds the sit or down in increments of seconds. Be patient and don't do so much of this that the dog gets bored.

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I'd stop hiding the toy behind your back or anywhere else. Get him in drive for the toy, give him the sit or down command, wait a few seconds and give him the release and a bite on the toy and a short fight. Then build up the time the dog holds the sit or down in increments of seconds.

So are you saying to tease the dog with the toy and then when he really wants it, tell him to sit or down and just stand there motionless with the toy until he sits or lies down? Would you correct the dog if he didn't obey, or just stand there until he did?

Hi Al yesterday i brought my two mal pups out for a walk and some OB. They are almost 4-5 months now. I was able to teach them sit, down and stay. Make your pup focus on you more, the key is communication.

Kristen,
Yes, tease the dog with the toy, give him a few misses, right after a miss before he comes back after the toy give him the command. Stand still and don't hide the toy. Then quickly release him to get a bite on the toy. No corrections since you are building drive. If he doesn't follow the command, tell him no, give the command again and if he doesn't perform the behavior, start the game over again and try again. The "punishment" is the dog not getting to bite the toy rather than a correction.

Al,

I prefer the single command. I believe it's simpler for the dog and, in SchH, 'Down - Stay' is considered a double command.

If he has a hard time holding it together for the toy, use food to shape the behavior, then go back to the toy or a combination of food & toy to polish the execution.

I largely agree with what Chip is saying, but I would not say 'no' if the pup doesn't give you the desired behavior, especially if you're just starting this, or just starting the work in drive. I would keep the toy visible, just inaccesible to the pup until he sits. If need be say 'Ah Ah - Sit' as a reminder.

Everyone's use and meaning of 'no', 'Ah - Ah' or 'phooee' vary, but to me 'no' is a strong verbal correction meant to diminish drive. JMO.

Hope this helps

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Kristen,
If he doesn't follow the command, tell him no, give the command again and if he doesn't perform the behavior, start the game over again and try again.

The only problem I'm seeing with that, is that the pup will learn if he doesn't listen, he's STILL going to get that toy (because by teasing your going to give him some 'hits and misses').

I think the toy is becoming more of a distraction then anything else. Its working almost like a 'lure'.

How long have you been keeping him in a stay when you're right next to him? Do you feel like he's 100% at that point?

If he breaks the down, I would say "No" and go back and guide him back into a down. Repeat the stay. If he stays for one split second when you take a small step away, praise, release and build up from there.

I teach down first. I put the treat in my hands and push down at an angle towards the dog. I want the dog hitting the ground really fast. The minute he is down, I mark it and release.
I do this until I see that he is going down at the movement of my hands alone. Then I try to get rid of any movement on my part.
Then I keep doing this for a while. Maybe a couple of weeks, before I start trying to get some time. Now because I release him right away, usually, I can cheat by asking for the down and not releasing for a second. Because I have worked on my foundation for so long I don't get them just popping up. I build on the time but I don't move away from them. Time before distance is the rule. I also take whatever I can get at home and cut it way back when training at a new place. I normally only have to do this a few times and they get it and I can do a bit more. Correct repetitions is what you want, not distance or really long periods of time. That comes later.