My question is - has anyone ever skipped the sleeve and gone straight to bite suits or hidden sleeves in PPD training? Or used something else then transition to a sleeve? Is the sleeve an integral part of bitework or is that just the most common way/schutzhund approved way of doing bite work?

My dog will bite an arm wearing a jacket but I am still having to do alot of drive building for the sleeve, he has about 50 other things in my household that he has more drive for. He'll bite the sleeve when I play with him with it, he'll hold on and swing all 4 legs off the ground, but only if you wave it in front of him a certain way... quick movements pulling it again from his mouth, dragging it across the ground letting him chase it etc. However, if you wear a jacket and present your arm in a playful manner he'll latch on without hesitation right on the forearm. Is there a way to use this to my advantage? Should I perhaps try him on a bite suit or a baggy jacket with a hidden sleeve instead of the jute puppy sleeve?

I've been using Jeff Oehlsen's technique of denying him the sleeve entirely, I've done so for a week, it's definately built his drive up for it but it's still nowhere near the drive he has for his tug or other household items lol.

I realize this may just be an incredibly stupid question/idea - but I've got to believe there's more than 1 way to bite train a dog and so far I've based my training on the "use whatever it takes to make him do what I want him to do" philosophy, wether this means using unusual replacements for tugs or using hotdogs to build speed in obedience. If he'll bite a jacket and my ultimate goal is to have him bite an intruders arm and not a sleeve on the Schutzund field, there's got to be some way to use this to my advantage, right? Or is the "only" way to do this by spending the next month or 2 building his drive for the sleeve with lotsa frustration? Ofcourse, this could just be a really stupid thought... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mike,
Do you replace the shirt that you use over your hidden sleeve for each new bite like you're suppose to?

I've only done this less than a handful of times to see his response, 100% playing/experimenting - I didn't want to go ahead and use the hidden sleeve as his primary training aid until I made sure wether it was ok to do so.

Basically, I wanted to see if someone was gonna say "what the hell, are you crazy?? You should ALWAYS go with the big jute sleeve during bite training!! The hidden sleeve should be left for finishing the dog!!" or not first <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But I didn't know about the changing shirt for each bite thing either, so I will be sure to keep that in mind in future.

Most of the time a week is not enough. I will tell you it is easier with a dog that bites "right out of the box" so to speak. I also think that you learn a heck of a lot more with one that doesn't, and are a much beter handler and trainer for it. You will also know exactly what to look for in your next dog. Keep up with the frustration, it is a powerful tool for dogs like yours. The other thing is try not to jump around with equipment to much. It is tempting, but I have worked with dogs kinda like yours that got real high in drive over the dumbest things but never really cared for the sleeve. It feels like you have all the pieces of the puzzle, but they don't go together right.
I have a bitch that really really should of been able to do the work. She has the right genetics, incredible drive, but her thresholds are to high. All the pieces, but in the wrong order so to speak. So, I enjoy her company, and she is my "truck dog". I went and got another dog. I have been where you have at, seen many others where you are at, and can tell you the easy way out. Get another dog.

Random reinforcement is a strong form of reinforcement. Jinxie did it to me, so stop and think about it. One day it's all good, sometimes it's just o.k. sometimes it's really frustrating, then good ect. ect. If you see this pattern....... Something to think about.

mike what you need to do is simple. first have a good trainer and or a good trainer decoy evaluate your dog for the purpose of real bitework. he she or they should be able to tell you exactly where the dog is at, what it will be able to do trained and most likely what it wont be able to do.
then at least you no where you stand weather to get another dog train your dog time frames etc. it takes a good dog and great training and a hell of a lot of work to insure you have a 99.9% dependable personal protection dog.
but then again theres those dogs that save your butt with no training at all. TOM

When I am interested in something it's always my goal to learn as much as I can about it - so I guess it's only fitting that I have a dog that requires me to learn alot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I will keep at the frustration, it seems to be working well with him, but a week is definately not enough to get him up there with the static duster <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I also notice that if I put something away for a few days, when I bring it back out his enthusiasm goes way up for it.

What do you mean by random reinforcement?

Having your dog evaluated by a "good" trainer is an excellent idea. The only problem is finding the "good" trainer. Let me tell ya from experience, I've done a little bit of work with some recommended and supposedly "good" trainers who I found to be utterly worthless. With that said it can't hurt to let some "professionals" give you their esteemed opinion of your dog. But I wouldn't get too high or too down on anything the first two or three tell you. Now if a unanimous consensus of five tell you he can/can't do the work, then you may have a correct answer.

Here's another thing to keep in mind. Some so-called trainers will virtually automatically write off your dog unless it came from someone in their clique.

For the record, I've also become acquainted with some very good dog trainers too. It's just that they're in the minority. I'm not down on trainers, just the crappy ones. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mike,

to talk about your initial question, many trainers go to the suit through a leg sleeve that can also be used as an arm sleeve. The idea is to use it like a tug, then get the dog used to biting on the leg and later on the arm with the same leg sleeve (usually of the same material as a suit). Just take your time and do it in a few sessions. Once the dog learns the targeting, it's an easy transition to the suit.

After he's comfortable with the leg sleeve, you can probably start to give him work on the regular jute sleeve. The leg sleeve SHOULD be a good way to get him interested in the regular sleeve - he gets used to biting it, and then starts to recognize the regular sleeve as a prey item as well. The leg sleeve I have is a slipperly almost plastic texture that is hard to grip, so the Jute sleeve quickly becomes very comfortable to the dog, but you should get him used to the feel and the size when he's biting it.

Alan...

Sleeves are not required learning for PPD dogs.

Transitioning to a suit is fine. I would do that prior to playing with the hidden sleeve any more though.