Would someone be able to clarify whether training obedience before you train protection would be a problem.
I was told that too much obedience work in a young dog can and most likely will diminish their potential in protection work.
Is this true and if so how much is too much?
Should you stick with basic obedience such as sit, down, stay, come ect. until the dog is older and started in protection work?
Thanks in advance
Petra

I think correcting too much before protection is what people are referring to. If you are teaching obedience thru drive (get the building drive & focus DVD with Bernhard Flinks, it'll teach alot about training in drive) then I don't think theres a problem.

That said, I started correcting way too young with my dog thanks to some bad advice from a trainer, and I still am strict on his obedience when he's on leash, but I still do ALOT of drive work with him, alot of obedience in drive, and plenty of "play time" so I think this balances it out reasonably. I correct him with a prong for disobedience, and either with an e-collar or with verbal correction when he's off leash. It doesn't seem to have affected his drive at all.

Like I always say, it's an individual thing - perhaps if you have a very soft dog, then correcting too hard will kill their drive, but if you balance it out, I personally don't think it'll be a huge problem.

Ofcourse, i'm no expert trainer, I just calls em as I sees em and explain to people what I'm doing with my dog and the things I notice when working with him. I'll admit that when he was about 5 months old and I was teaching him to "heel" with the bad training methods I was taught on a choker, he'd seem very annoyed at me because the choker didn't do anything more than irritate him, he'd rather choke himself than heel. I started doing some motivational heeling with him and then working him on an e-collar and suddenly within an hour he understood the whole concept of heeling.

That's an old myth from the days when obedience training consisted of mainly just using compulsion.

Training obedience using motivational techniques will not alter a dog's drive in protection. And even in the old days, the dogs that appeared to lose their protection drives due to compulsion being used for obedience were usually weak dogs to begin with.

Whoever is giving you this advice seems to be stuck in the training world of the 1970's and may not be a good source of training information for you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Will, It is someone that has been training dogs for over 25 years, so old school it probably is. Its great to be able to ask this forum for clarification.
Petra

Mike, I have that DVD and its great! Thanks for the info now I don't have to worry because its strickly motivational
obedience that I'm doing at this stage.
Petra

All the training at our club is motivational. One of the exercises is called "earn the turn". The dogs are fussed away from the helper, and have to make strong eye contact with the handler and be in correct fuss position if they want to be sent in for a bite. Even the older, finished dogs will now stare a hole in their handlers in order to make us turn and send hem for a bite. When the turn is made, the dog then focuses on the helper, but knows it has to stay in position till the packin/dirst command is given. At just shy of 2yrs old, my dog has never been given a strong correction. His defence is now being tapped into, and his level of desire to engage has gone up a ton. His drive is fantastic, and I might add, he's off leash, as are all the dogs. They don't need to be corrected into position. Our young dogs that haven't even gotten their BH yet are doing the transport, long bite, escape bite, H&B, etc. They have learned being in position is what gets the bite. There's nothing like a dog on the protection field, fussing in high drive. I've seen to many trials that it's obvious when the dog is "controlled" because it's in avoidance. Some will say that our dogs must not have much drive if they can be "controlled" so easily. The best answer I have to that is, "Come out for a bite sometime". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mike,
I don't believe it's a problem. However when the dog is young I try to do OB and bitework on different days. For them to better focus. Then later on as the dog starts to mature slowly incorporate the two.

Sorry Mike, meant Petra

I have seen way too much conflict in our club between dog and handler in situations where the handler has done OB before the protection work. This, of course, doesn't happen in all cases.. usually the OB was not taught in a positive way or the dog is just weak anyways!

I do little bits of motivational OB (heel position, object guard position, sit, down, stand) early on, then once the dog has grasped the basic concept... OB for bites baby! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh by the way i am following my clubs outlook on ob before protection and that is to do a little bit just so he gets the idea than thats it let em grow up after that.