Leerburg | Training the Retrieve with Michael Ellis

Training the Retrieve
with Michael Ellis

3 Hours

3 Hours
Product #224-D

Our new DVD with Michael Ellis was finished on June 18th of 2010. It is at our DVD duplicator and expected to ship in the middle of July. We had hoped to ship it sooner but our June seminar and Mondio Trail at leerburg took more of our time than expected.

The DVD is 3 hours long and It is by far the most comprehensive step-by-step training DVD on teaching a dog to retrieve that we have ever seen. It will replace both of our previous retrieval training DVDs.

If you are a student of marker training or interested in marker training you will love Michael Ellis’ approach to this work. Because the system is founded in markers there is a very minimal amount of force used in our training. It is our belief that a dog should not be force trained to retrieve.

We recommend the viewer have an understanding of marker training before beginning this work. This is all covered in the earlier DVDs we have done with Michael Ellis.

In our opinion, no one is ever going to reinvent a better training system on teaching a dog to retrieve than what we have detailed in this training DVD. Michael’s system can be used for AKC obedience, for Schutzhund trainers, for any of the ring sport trainers and even field trial retriever enthusiasts.

Chapters on this DVD

Michael Ellis Opening Lecture on the Steps of Training the Retrieve
Pattern retrieving games
Step One - Holding the Dog's Muzzle
Students Learning the Hold
Training the Dog to Hold and Object
Retraining Older Dogs to Hold
Review of Training Steps Before Pickup Training
Trouble Shooting the Hold
When to use a Tug Reward
Training the Pickup
Introducing the Dog to the Tossed Dumbbell
When to Mark the Pickup
Proofing the Exercise
Free Shaping
Advance Training - Introducing New Retrieve Objects
Two Lectures on Michael Reviewing the Retrieve
What to do when the Dog doesn't Pick up Retrieve Object

on Training the Retrieve with Michael Ellis

Question:

Hello Ed,

I just had a couple of questions about training the dumbbell retrieve. I see that there is a new Michael Ellis DVD coming out on this subject. I know that Michael Ellis uses markers and that this is how he trains the retrieve but is this the most effective method? I ask this because at my club they train using a force retrieve and I wanted to try a different method when it comes time. Everyone says that the motivational retrieve is ok but you can't rely on whether or not the dog feels like retrieving the item. Also they say that it is tougher to teach the dog not to be mouthy on the dumbbell unless compulsion is used. Is this the case? I'm sure he goes over this stuff in the DVD but I just figured I'd ask before making the investment.

One other thing. My dog wasn't trained with markers but was taught the behaviors with treats and praise and then corrections were introduced once he knew what was expected (similar to your philosophy from what I've read). His obedience is near perfect and he does pretty well with everything else. It seems silly to go back and do the foundations of marker training just for the retrieve, but is this what needs to be done in order to teach with this method or can you pick it up from just this DVD? Basically I'm asking if there's a ton of work to be done before starting with this method if I trained my dog somewhat differently. Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Michael

Answer:

This is just a great email. You hit right at the heart of what we are doing.

Your clubs comments on not being able to have reliability in a retrieve when it is trained 100% motivationally is correct. That’s what I have said for the past 25 years and it is right. Unless there is some form of compulsion there can be no reliability.

That’s the beauty of what Michael does. He combines marker training with low level compulsion. He trained the exercise by back chaining the work. This means he beings by teaching the dog to hold the item. This is done with “markers” using a PVC. At the core we don’t really want the dog to like this stage. We don’t want to use an item that the dog likes and few dogs like PVC.

We want to teach them to hold the PVC without chewing. At this stage they learn they have to do this even if they don’t like it. We break this exercise down into the smallest of training steps and I really like the way Michael does it. He shows the dog without serious compulsion that he must hold even if he doesn't’t like it. You will hear Michael say in the DVD that this is avoidance training without pain inflicted compulsion.

Now with this said, we assume people are working with a dog that has some working genetics. There are some dogs out there that under no circumstances are they going to be trained to retrieve without serious “force training.” Our contention is those dogs should go be pets someplace. There are too many working dogs available to justify inflicting pain on a dog just to get it to retrieve. It’s just not worth it.

Your question on markers is also good. The dog must know what a mark is to do this work. This means the handler should take his dog through “charge the mark” training. This is explained in the article I have written (I have a free 85 page eBook on my web site) or you can see it in a lot more detail in the marker DVD I have done or the DVDs with Michael on food and a tug. But the bottom line is “charging the mark” take a couple of days of fun work for you and your dog – basically teaching him that when you say “YES” he gets a high value reward.

Here is what will happen if you teach your dog what a “Mark” is and then do this retrieve work with him. You will find yourself learning how to use markers in all of your training program – because it opens a clear line of communication with your dog. You will find yourself in the same boat I climbed into 6 or 7 years ago and that is wanting to learn to use markers in all of your work. It will not be a matter of having to it will be a matter of “this is cool stuff and I want to learn as much as I can.”

Once you cross that line then watch what it does to the rest of your training (including protection work). It will improve the relationship with your dog and as good as you think the dog in now – just wait.

Regards,
Ed Frawley

Question:

Ed,

I watched this video after getting your recent email on your new retrieve DVD. I am struck by the significant difference between how Ranie was shaped to pick up the PVC rather than forced to retrieve as is typical in most bird dog work. I have a 16 month old Llewellin Setter that I need to teach to retrieve and she has to date just been naturally going and getting a thrown kong toy and doing a pretty good job of eventually bringing it back, to hand.

I would prefer NOT to use an ear pinch or the other force methods that most use in the bird dog community and I am encouraged by what I have seen in this short video.

Have you had experience training a bird dog to retrieve as is needed in the field? Alternatively, do you have clients/customers that have adapted these shaping techniques to field work and been successful? Accomplishing the same thing with this shaping method seems much better to me than the force methods I have seen employed. I want my dog to be enthusiastic about retrieving and not fearing some negative outcome. What dvds would you suggest would help me attempt this?

Ultimately the dog has to be steady to wing and shot, once the bird is down they are sent to retrieve, and they should directly retrieve to hand without chewing the bird up. I've got to think this can be done with an approach similar to what I have seen in this video and the video that was emailed out related to your new dvd.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions or thoughts you have.

-Neal

Ed's Answer:

Neal,

Your question is an excellent one.

After getting your email about my new retrieval DVD it reminded me that I included Rainie in the marker DVD shaping he being trained to pick up a [piece of PVC.

Our new video is laid out in segments. The first hour (a little more actually) deals with teaching a dog to HOLD the piece of PVC. We use PVC rather than a Kong or piece of wood (like a dumb bell) because the dog cant self satisfy by chewing on it. As a rule they don’t like holding it. We teach them through markers to hold the PVS: to walk with the PVC: and to Sit from a Stand while holding – again all done with markers. Taking a dog through this part of the program should take a week to 10 days. There are a number of training steps to accomplish this work

When the dog will consistently do this it’s then ready to go through the pickup training. When trainers have working dogs with drive (like you have) we use this drive to pick up a new item (not the PVC) We go to a new item because even though we taught the HOLD with markers there still can be negative feelings towards the PVC so we leave this behind when we switch to a dumb bell or other item the handler wishes to use.

Michael teaches handlers how to layer in the training steps for retrieving this second item.

This brings us to the issue of shaping. Those people who have working dogs with drive do not need to go through shaping the retrieve. Michael shows how to use their drive in the pickup step. Those people who own dogs that don’t have a natural drive have to use shaping. With this said the Pickup” is only a small part of the whole process.

Back in the early 1980’s I trained using the ear pinch. It is a abusive way to train a dog. I know that hunting dog trainers still use this method along with a number of other avoidance methods to teach a dog to retrieve. This is a better way. For years I produced and sold a DVD titled “Training the forced Retrieve.” I will no longer sell that DVD or the other DVD that I produced about 10 years ago.

In my sport of choice (the Mondio Ring Sport) the dog is expected to retrieve an item selected by the judge. It can be almost anything and is only limited to the imagination of the judge (about the only rule is that it can’t be a metal object) At the end of this new DVD I have included Mondio dogs retrieving a wide range of items.

There is no question that our methods can and should be used by more hunting dog trainers. Teaching a dog to retrieve a bird is a lot easier than training it to retrieve some of the Mondio ring items that we demonstrate.

Best Regards,
Ed

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