July 22, 2011
Do you think you will ever make a DVD that helps you introduce the 'Ellis Method' to an already trained adult dog?
Full Question:
Ed,I don't know how many experienced handlers start with a puppy vs. buying a started dog for Schutzhund. Personally, I rarely have the patients to raise a puppy in the hopes that I picked the right dog, and don't have any prohibitive health issues. I have bought and studied all the dvds through retrieve training, and feel like these are great DVDs, but are basically geared to people raising pups. I was wondering if you and Michael couldn't devote an entire DVD to converting adult dogs coming from a variety of different systems to the "Ellis method." This would be such a great help to people like me. I'm sure you both know that the "perfect" or near perfect dogs aren't for sale, but there are many "fixable" dogs out there offered for sale.
Thanks,
Dean
Ed's Answer:
Dean,
If you don’t have the basic foundation established in a dog you don’t have the tools available to handle and retrain a dog.
It matters not if a dog is 8 weeks old or 5 years old, the foundation tools need to be there to retrain or correct bad training.
You can always go out and correct the snot out of a dog for non-compliance. But is that fair if the dog had a crappy trainer before you got it and he doesn’t understand the correct way to perform? I think not.
I imported police service dogs (more than I can ever count) back in the mid to late 1980’s. It didn’t matter if they were Sch titled, Cezch titled or DDR titled. I took the approach that they didn’t know anything and we started from scratch. The training usually went faster than training a puppy because these dogs had learned how to learn. When they found out that I was going to be “FAIR” with them and not knock them around it even went faster.
So the answer to your question is - NO, we won't ever do that kind of a DVD, because we already have the foundation work covered in the food and tug DVDs. Trainers need to be doing this with newly acquired adult dogs. That work is how you build your bond with a new dog, that and walks and the time it takes.
There are no short cuts to good training. I hope that makes sense.
Regards,
Ed Frawley
If you don’t have the basic foundation established in a dog you don’t have the tools available to handle and retrain a dog.
It matters not if a dog is 8 weeks old or 5 years old, the foundation tools need to be there to retrain or correct bad training.
You can always go out and correct the snot out of a dog for non-compliance. But is that fair if the dog had a crappy trainer before you got it and he doesn’t understand the correct way to perform? I think not.
I imported police service dogs (more than I can ever count) back in the mid to late 1980’s. It didn’t matter if they were Sch titled, Cezch titled or DDR titled. I took the approach that they didn’t know anything and we started from scratch. The training usually went faster than training a puppy because these dogs had learned how to learn. When they found out that I was going to be “FAIR” with them and not knock them around it even went faster.
So the answer to your question is - NO, we won't ever do that kind of a DVD, because we already have the foundation work covered in the food and tug DVDs. Trainers need to be doing this with newly acquired adult dogs. That work is how you build your bond with a new dog, that and walks and the time it takes.
There are no short cuts to good training. I hope that makes sense.
Regards,
Ed Frawley
User Response:
Ed,I have gone back & done the marker system from scratch with my dog, & it's allowed me to establish a great relationship with a Malinois that wanted go eat me for lunch. My situation is that the dog had too much bite development, with no control work, & is one of those "crack head" dogs that Michael refers to. The helper can stand there & act like he is asleep, and the dog's drive is still to the point that he can't think straight, & doesn't feel pain. To teach the hold cleanly I have been forced to wire a hot sleeve to a cattle prod, & prong the hell out of him. I really love this dog, & hate having to train like this. I'm looking for a way to lower his drive so that he can think. Maybe the answer is in these DVDs, & I haven't found it. I am open to any humane solution. I have had some minimal success heeling him for the bite, & marking when he focuses on me.
Ed's Answer:
We are going to have to agree to disagree.
You are missing something in your training on the OUT. If you are being advised to use electric sleeves and cattle prods, you’re getting bad advice from inexperienced trainers. Feel free to pass this along to whoever it is. What you are doing is animal abuse, not dog training.
This is not the way to train a dog to OUT. You have the tug DVD, there is 1 hour 28 minutes of OUT training there. Then in the DVD on Protection Skills Without a Decoy, there is another hour there. In fact, in that DVD there is a police service dog that is probably exactly like your dog. We go through the steps with the tug work and then explain the training steps to transition onto a decoy. I don’t have time to repeat the steps right now, but this works.
The fact is you don’t have to lower the dog's drive to accomplish a clean OUT. You just need to teach the dog there is a better way and if he will make a few changes he will get what he wants, which is a fight with the decoy.
Regards,
Ed Frawley
You are missing something in your training on the OUT. If you are being advised to use electric sleeves and cattle prods, you’re getting bad advice from inexperienced trainers. Feel free to pass this along to whoever it is. What you are doing is animal abuse, not dog training.
This is not the way to train a dog to OUT. You have the tug DVD, there is 1 hour 28 minutes of OUT training there. Then in the DVD on Protection Skills Without a Decoy, there is another hour there. In fact, in that DVD there is a police service dog that is probably exactly like your dog. We go through the steps with the tug work and then explain the training steps to transition onto a decoy. I don’t have time to repeat the steps right now, but this works.
The fact is you don’t have to lower the dog's drive to accomplish a clean OUT. You just need to teach the dog there is a better way and if he will make a few changes he will get what he wants, which is a fight with the decoy.
Regards,
Ed Frawley
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