My boy is coming up to 21 months old, it's been a tricky road to getting him to bite, but he's biting good in defense now. We've been ignoring his Out because our primary focus was to make him feel comfortable biting, he had problems with thinking that "biting wasn't allowed" so we've put alot of focus into teaching him that biting IS allowed, and therefore slipping the sleeve totally ignoring the Out.

Now it's getting to the point where his intensity is up there, he's biting good in defense, and I think that it's becoming neccesary to introduce the Out to him. I've been holding off on it primarily because I know it involves correcting my dog at some point for not outing, n I don't want this to be interpreted by the dog as a correction for biting.

With this in mind - my plan for the next training session was to introduce the Out as outlined below, but before I go ahead and totally screw up my dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'd like some input from someone to confirm wether this is a good idea or if there's a better way to introduce the Out to his bitework.

He does understand his Out word, it's just never been placed in context with the sleeve and the decoy.

My plan was to have the decoy agitate him as usual, send the dog on him at 15-20 ft on a long line with his harness, while wearing his e-collar on a very low level that he will still respond to as a correction. When the dog bites, I praise my dog like crazy, let the dog fight, have the decoy stop moving then Out the dog and *give a SIT command, if he doesn't listen (I think he will), correct the dog verbally and then hit the e-collar on the Nick setting if he doesn't respond to the verbal correction. When the dog's Outed, immediately let the decoy re-engage the dog for a re-bite, and repeat the above scenario.

* The theory being that obedience relieves stress and gives him another task to focus on besides re-biting.

Does this sound like the way to go? How would you tweak this to make more sense? And if this is the right way to go - how many re-bites should I give my dog before putting him up? Normally we work the dog for 1-3 bites, put him up for 30 minutes then bring him out for another 1-3 bites. The number of bites we give the dog depends on how he's doing, if his first bite is absolutely amazing, he gets praised like crazy and goes straight to the crate having beat the bad guy.

If he knows how to out well while playing tug with you...and I mean well, like instantaneous...you have two options you can try.

Option 1) Use two sleeves. After a bite, the decoy slips the sleeve, the dog takes it while on a long line and harness. As the dog begins to mouth the sleeve (which is a potential undesirable side effect), you say OUT and the decoy agitates with the OTHER sleeve. When the dog is doing this well, the decoy can have one sleeve on the right arm and one on the left. The left arm DEACTIVATES, you say OUT, and the decoy activates the right arm. Then you move to outing the dog off one sleeve and rewarding him with a bite on that same sleeve AS SOON AS HE COMPLIES... gradually lengthening the time he maintains the out. If he tries to make a mistake, have the decoy TOTALLY INANIMATE THE SLEEVE, toss it to the ground in disgust <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and walk away for 2 or 3 minutes. The idea with this is that it's easier to teach OUT from a sleeve, than OUT from a sleeve on an arm.

Option 2) The decoy inanimates after the bite. You wait HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES for the dog to begin mouthing the sleeve, or getting bored, or whatever the dog may be thinking. When you see that, you say OUT, you wait until the dog gets his teeth off the sleeve, and as soon as he does, the decoy reanimates. Then, again, you gradually lengthen the time the dog must wait.

The time it takes for these options to work depends on the dog, but you may be surprised at how fast some dogs catch on to this.

Teach first, correct later.

Quote:The number of bites we give the dog depends on how he's doing, if his first bite is absolutely amazing, he gets praised like crazy and goes straight to the crate having beat the bad guy.

How is this beating the bad guy??

Thanks Andres, I'll give those suggestions a shot next time we work with my dog.

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How is this beating the bad guy??

Maybe it's not? I don't know... what would you consider "beating the bad guy"? Bad guy agitates, comes straight in at the dog making eye contact n making threatening motions, dog gives decent defensive bark, snapping at whatever the decoy offers (wether there's a sleeve or not), dog bites, decoy cries out in pain n goes to the ground or acts like he's severely suffering, fights with the dog to try and get him to out (nothing too crazy), then slips the sleeve n runs away out of sight. Dog spits out sleeve n tries to run after the decoy again, I praise like hell n stick him in his crate where he can't see us anymore. If I think his bite could have been better or there's some type of issue I'd like to address, the decoy turns around n comes at the dog again, dog bites, if I'm happy, decoy disappears, dog goes into crate.

Maybe he's not beating the decoy? I don't know, you tell me, it's the only word I could think of to describe it. When a dog bites in prey for Schutzhund and the decoy tugs with the dog, it's still called fighting with the dog right?

I think that is a better explanation than the first. I had a picture in my head of your dog striking well, biting well, and then 30 seconds later the decoy gives him the sleeve and he goes in his crate. Let the dog drag you after the decoy, and chase him off the property. That would be a good thing to add.

Then maybe a few sessions down the road, sporadically add in the decoy trying to come back on the property a different way, and the dog chases him off.

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I think that is a better explanation than the first. I had a picture in my head of your dog striking well, biting well, and then 30 seconds later the decoy gives him the sleeve and he goes in his crate. Let the dog drag you after the decoy, and chase him off the property. That would be a good thing to add.

Then maybe a few sessions down the road, sporadically add in the decoy trying to come back on the property a different way, and the dog chases him off.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> that's a good idea.. this is the stuff I like input on, building on what we're doing. The next training sessions should be interesting, I can't wait!

And Re: your blog comment... friends don't need fingers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mike,

Just an observation...You stated that you "think" he will out. It may not be such a good idea to go balls out in your first training session with him and try to get him to out.

You also stated that you had issues in getting him to see that it was OK to bite but you have that fixed now. I would be concerned a tad that if this first out training goes badly that you may have problems with the biting again because he will be conflicted.

Before going full out with your dog all pumped up in these first out sessions, you might want to gradually progress up to that instead. Once he has it down, Jeff's advice on beating the bad guy and chasing off the field is good.

Howard

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you might want to gradually progress up to that instead.

Thanks Howard - could you give me a quick example of what you mean by gradually progressing up to it? i.e a training situation and method we might try, and what you would change to that scenario to progress towards a perfect out?

Mike,

"The perfect out" Hmmm...Tall order that I have yet to attain.

Just from what I know by your posts....I would start the training with a low level of stimulation so that the dog isnt going bonkers and causes you to be too heavy handed on the out. Get him on the sleeve with minimal input from the decoy. Remember, he knows the out in play but this will be new to him. Once he succeeds in the first few sessions of low key bitework then you can bring it up a notch. This is where a good helper is priceless as he will be reading the dog.

If the outs are solid, then have the helper give the dog a little more. Remember, you want him to succeed without any negative feedback if at all possible. Progress from there. Dont try to do too much in one session, end it all on a positive note until the next training session. Seeing as how he knows the out in play, it is a natural transfer to the decoy until his training has progressed to more serious work. This is where Jeffs advice comes in. At some point things will become serious and all those baby steps will be worth it.

For the decoy...No major agitation, yelling, whips aggressive body language or hard eye contact in the beginning. As the training progresses he can incorporate these tactics when the dog is confortable and has a consistant good out. The decoy should do just enough to get the dogs attention, and keep it so that he doesnt become distracted. Once on the bite, do just enough to keep him focused with a firm grip. On the out, have the decoy go limp. As the training gets better the decoy can still be animated on the out but that is down the road.

Teaching the out can be pleasurable, or a real pain if its done wrong. Good luck.

Howard

Another thing you can do with the "dull decoy" is go back to a tug, or wedge. They are not as exciting as the sleeve, and I would think you have outed your dog off a tug. That might help. I do have the perfect "out" on Buko. (thats about it though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />