MikeKimball wrote 02/18/2006 08:26 AM E-Collar vs Choke off leash #98449 - 02/18/2006 08:26 AM
MikeKimball Webboard User Reg: 02-17-2006 Posts: 6 Loc: Offline	Hey guys I am new here and I have a question I really need to get some input on. I have a I yr old Mal. I started her training on an ecollar, however when we moved to to a new state and began her protection work with a new trainer I was told that a PPD / SchH dog should never have an ecollar on and since then she has been on a choke or prong. Her obedience work is now dialed in and her bite work is going great. So should I never let her off leash? Should I ditch the ecollar? It just feels odd now letting her run off leash with out it. There is always that what if factor. I am sure everyone has a different opinion; I am just trying to gather some input. And also how is being collar smart to the ecollar any differant to being collar smart to the choke collar or being on leash? So what do most PPL who have a SchH / PPD do? Leave them on a leash 24/7? use both the choke and ecollar? Thanks in advance, Mike
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Robert VanCamp wrote 02/18/2006 11:40 AM Re: E-Collar vs Choke off leash [Re: MikeKimball ] #98450 - 02/18/2006 11:40 AM
Robert VanCamp Webboard User Reg: 11-28-2001 Posts: 3916 Loc: Offline	A PPD should never have an e-collar on? That's one of the most rediculous training opinions I've ever heard posted to this board. Get away from that idiot. Other than not being able to wear an e-collar during a SchH trial, there is no reason you can't use one for training. A choke collar is one of the worst options for corrections.
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Will Rambeau wrote 02/18/2006 12:31 PM Re: E-Collar vs Choke off leash [Re: MikeKimball ] #98451 - 02/18/2006 12:31 PM
Will Rambeau Moderator Reg: 01-25-2003 Posts: 5983 Loc: Idaho Offline	Mike, Thanks for posting this ( he and I talked privately about this and I urged him to post the question here also to get other opinions ). Different trainers like using different tools, but when a trainer totally rejects a tool that's useful in many situations ( such as.....the e-collar ) I become a little leary of following that trainers advice. Dogs can become collar wise with *any* type of training collar, it just depends on the dog ( are there are simple fixes for that problem, it's certainly not a good reason to not use a particular collar type ). The Fetz dog: http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/79673/page/25
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MikeKimball wrote 02/18/2006 01:14 PM Re: E-Collar vs Choke off leash [Re: Will Rambeau ] #98452 - 02/18/2006 01:14 PM
MikeKimball Webboard User Reg: 02-17-2006 Posts: 6 Loc: Offline	Dont get me wrong guys, my trainer is on point when it comes to using the choke collar. I think he has done great work proofing the obediance and starting the bit work. I just like the safety factor of having the ecollar in an off leash situation. Would I ruin my dog if if use both the choke collar and leash and at other times use just the e ecollar? When I was doing basic training (sit come down off etc) I would leave the e collar on her from the time we got up until when we would go to bed, even if we were just playing or hiking. does this make her collar smart? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the help
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Mike J Schoonbrood wrote 02/27/2006 04:03 PM Re: E-Collar vs Choke off leash [Re: MikeKimball ] #98453 - 02/27/2006 04:03 PM
Mike J Schoonbrood Webboard User Reg: 04-30-2005 Posts: 2784 Loc: Toronto, ON Offline	Quote: Would I ruin my dog if if use both the choke collar and leash and at other times use just the e ecollar? IMO you ruin the dog with a choke collar. Switch to a prong and feel free to use the e-collar whenever you feel it's appropriate, it's the best off-leash training tool out there... chokers are a waste of the metal they are made of... when your dog hates you and you're in the vet's office with neck injuries, don't say I didn't warn you.
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jeff oehlsen wrote 02/27/2006 08:06 PM Re: E-Collar vs Choke off leash [Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ] #98454 - 02/27/2006 08:06 PM
jeff oehlsen Webboard User Reg: 11-20-2002 Posts: 1303 Loc: Colorado Offline	The reason I don't use an E-collar is the dang things are so bulky. The dogs are always banging in to stuff, and frankly get on my nerves...........wait, you meant electric collar <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I am smarter than my dog, your just not.
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Matthew Grubb wrote 02/27/2006 09:27 PM Re: E-Collar vs Choke off leash [Re: MikeKimball ] #98455 - 02/27/2006 09:27 PM
Matthew Grubb Webboard User Reg: 09-27-2002 Posts: 637 Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa. Offline	Quote: Would I ruin my dog if if use both the choke collar and leash and at other times use just the e ecollar? When I was doing basic training (sit come down off etc) I would leave the e collar on her from the time we got up until when we would go to bed, even if we were just playing or hiking. My work dog wears his e-collar every day at work and every training session…along with his pinch collar. I have gone more than a month at a time without having to stim him. I like to save my e-collar as a proofing tool when I’m setting him up to fail and I need to ensure that I’m going to get a perfectly timed correction. I’m a firm believer in never giving a command unless I can enforce it….. the e-collar gives you that ability. I have always been concerned about my dog becoming “collar wise” with the e-collar as we can’t wear one when we certify each year. For me, using it sparingly has helped greatly. http://www.NAPWDA.com
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Howard Knauf wrote 03/01/2006 10:45 PM Re: E-Collar vs Choke off leash [Re: Will Rambeau ] #98456 - 03/01/2006 10:45 PM
Howard Knauf Webboard User Reg: 09-24-2003 Posts: 1555 Loc: Melbourne, Florida Offline	Will.... Different trainers like using different tools, but when a trainer totally rejects a tool that's useful in many situations ( such as.....the e-collar ) I become a little leary of following that trainers advice. Ahhh...If only the right people would take your advise. The last three dogs I trained at work utilized the pinch and E-collar. All three performed well. My stubborn, know-it-all Leutenant has now labeled me as a crackpot who cant train a dog without fancy gadgets. He has banned the e-collar and pinch from our unit has has gone back to training dogs like they did in the 19th century. As a result, all are sloppy and he has single-handedly broken the bond of one team by forcing the handler to use extremely heavy physical corrections on a soft dog. The dog now runs to the other side of the car kennel when the handler opens the door. He wont even do his OB for a toy now. Pathetic. Howard http://www.spacecoasttactical.com
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jeff oehlsen wrote 03/02/2006 03:07 AM Re: E-Collar vs Choke off leash [Re: Howard Knauf ] #98457 - 03/02/2006 03:07 AM
jeff oehlsen Webboard User Reg: 11-20-2002 Posts: 1303 Loc: Colorado Offline	How is it I have always gotten good results in the past with a "choke"?? I think the key here is not the correction tool, but proper understanding of the exersize/command before the application of any type of correction. This requires patience, (God knows how many dog people I know that have none) and a good understanding as far as how dogs learn.(I am going to tell you whether you know or not) Dogs learn the situation and the pattern first, so when you think you have the command down pat, change something/anything. If the dog does the command without hesitation, keep changing until they are doing it in every situation you can think of. No one does this. They bust out the "E" the "C" or the "P" and start correcting. See how silly people are? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I am smarter than my dog, your just not.
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Howard Knauf wrote 03/02/2006 10:56 PM Re: E-Collar vs Choke off leash [Re: jeff oehlsen ] #98458 - 03/02/2006 10:56 PM
Howard Knauf Webboard User Reg: 09-24-2003 Posts: 1555 Loc: Melbourne, Florida Offline	Jeff, I have pretty much never used anything other than the choke myself. Of course my dog is soft so it made things a little easier. The only time I have dabbled with the pinch or e-collar was mainly to learn how to correctly use them so that when instructing in their use I knew what I was doing. I believe in both as very valuable training tools, not tools in which to mete out more severe corrections to gain compliance. They do have their place when it is time to use compulsion, but those instances are rare in our training. Howard http://www.spacecoasttactical.com
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