So often i hear people say how cruel an e-collar is and most of us try to find a compelling story to relate why this is an important part of training. Here is the best example I have ever heard. (I now own one of these pups and I'm not sure what problems this might lead to in the future.)

Two weeks after giving birth to a litter of 10 healthy pups, the breeder where I bought my german shorthair had the mother dog out pheasant hunting. (I know this was wrong) Suddenly a rabbit flushed and the dog gave chase. She did not respond to calls or the whistle. He even attempted to shoot the rabbit to make the dog stop, but it was out of range. The rabbit was running parallel to a set of railroad track as a train was passing. A ladder welded to the side of one of the cars caught her in the head killing her. If he would have had even one of the inexpensive e-collars he could have used whatever level necessary to get her attention and she would be alive today. The pups had to be bottle fed and at least they had their litter mates to be with, but this tragedy was clearly avoidable.

So far their doesn't seem to be an fallout in our pup from the litter. (she is about 10 weeks old now) But we have other issues I have posted elsewhere on this board.

I wouldn't allow my dog off-lead in the woods without one. Deer, coyotes, porcupines, unfriendly dogs, nervous people, horses, the occasional snowmobile or atv. I'm probably missing a few. Without the e-collar - no frisbee, no swimming, no sniffing, no fun.
That said, you'll never be able to use this as an argument with people who are against them. They'll always tell you should have used more positive reinforcement, taken more time to train, and taken more classes with better (clicker) trainers. I trained without the e-collar for two years but her recall was always 'come when she wants to' not 'come no matter what' and a healthy young dog walked two years on a long-line is two years too long.

Had my dogs in the car this wknd running errands & wasn't planning to walk them in the woods, but they gave me those EYES -- Didn't have their e-collars with either, but ever since our first training session on the remote system, they haven't needed any stim (shocking) at all, so thought I'd try an experiment...

Thanks to Ed Frawley's tips on his e-training DVD, I've been desensitizing my dogs to their e-collars, by putting them on & taking them off randomly (while NOT in use) and having them wear 3 different collars (flat buckle, metal prong & nylon choke WITH the remote trainer) while working them offlead -- This way the dogs do not become "collar-wise" (which means they obey your VOICE commands & not just because they know the e-collar can nick them!)...

Long story short: the dogs & I (a mature male Borzoi & a young Akita spay, both wearing ONLY their flat buckle collars) enjoyed a wonderful 2-hour walk in the woods, entirely OFFLEAD with all the usual distractions & zero disobedience (yes, I mean NO refusals!) -- Hooray for e-collar training, because it makes your dogs voice command reliable in no time at all, without ANY "yank & crank" and NO loss of attitude (and anyone who knows Borzoi or Akitas will realize what an amazing statement that is) !!!

So, if anyone reading this is still wondering IF they should invest in an e-collar, the answer is YES -- Just be sure to get a decent remote training system (I have the really sleek Innotek IUT-300, which is quite adequate for pet usage) and of course Ed's e-training DVD is an absolute MUST <:-)

I just read Ed's promo for the E-Collar DVD and it made me wonder if I can go straight to the E-Collar for off-property basic training even though I don't think I have dominant dogs? They are both 9 months old now and "fighting" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> for pack status. Can I by-pass the prong (even after studying Ed's article on proper placement, I still have a fear of getting it all wrong) and use the E-Collar for all aspects of training? I'm thinking because I have two dogs the same age, this will be a lot easier, but I don't just want to take the easy way out if I should really be using the prong first.

I should add that my boys probably need professional obedience training, but I am so green that I wouldn't know a good trainer if I saw one. Also, in my area, most/all dogs live in fenced-in properties and professional training is something that happens in the "big cities", so word of mouth doesn't help. Hence, I rely totally on the help I get and have gotten here.

Jan,
you might be surprised at this , but most of the higher level dog trainers actually live in rural locations ( where they can own dogs without a hassle ).
"Professional dog training" in the "big city" usually isn't. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I do know a trainer "up in the hills", but he is a K-9 trainer/handler and really doesn't have the time to do basic obedience. He will, upon occasion, answer a really dumb question. Also, the look I got when I asked him for a good training school was really comical <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm just a pet owner & not a professional canine handler, but I've trained lots of dogs in basic obedience work over many decades, so here's my 2 cents (for what it's worth):

1) Get an experienced party to walk you through fitting & using a prong collar in person -- Surely you can find someone at the Vet's office, or County Animal Control, or the place where you bought your dogs, who can give you a few minutes of hands-on instruction.

2) Buy the quick-release prong collars that do NOT have to be squeezed on & off over the dog's head, but are easily snapped on & off around their neck.

3) Use a good 6-foot leather leash & a 20-foot longline made of cotton webbing to teach your dogs their basic obedience commands (if you & your dogs haven't mastered this foundational training work already).

4) Only train ONE dog at a time, inside a secure area, while your other dog is put away somewhere else -- Work on the recall (COME! command) using the longline & distractions.

5) Buy Ed's e-collar DVD & a good quality remote training system -- Study his video til you know it backwards & forwards.

6) Once you feel comfortable using a prong collar & longline on your dogs, and feel confident in your grasp of all the material Ed teaches on his e-training video, then take the "radio remote" plunge & begin working the dogs on their e-collars ONE at a time, inside a fenced area -- During e-training sessions, keep the prong collars & longlines ON your dog; then once they obey voice commands from a distance (without needing any leash corrections) you will be ready to work them offlead wearing only their e-collars.

7) Jan, if I "dumbed this down" a bit too much, I'm sorry <:-)