I have been scouring this site, the articles, and the posts for days. I have found a lot of people who have asked my question, and read hours worth of responses, and never actually found an answer that's applicable to my situation. I even emailed Ed, and he told me to look here. I have found all sorts of advice, from "You need to socialize the dog - there is not a substitute for good socialization" to "I NEVER EVER let a stranger touch my dog!" (Both Ed.) I also realize there may be a difference between socialization and petting - and yet, I can't find that information anywhere. So, here is my last resort: posting the dreaded question, yet again.

I am not raising a PPD. I am not raising a working dog. My dog is not going to go through bite training, or herd sheep, or learn how to defend himself against a three legged purple monster with giant teeth and an oozy. There's nothing wrong with that, I just don't want it right now. I just want a pet.

My question is: what about socialization? With dogs and humans? I understand not socializing a working dog. I understand not allowing idiot humans who want to bark in your dog's face or dance like a clown right in front of his nose or actually ask to ride him like a horse anywhere within pepper spray distance of your dog. What I don't understand is not allowing extended family members, friends, or children that you know to play with your dog (supervised, of course).

Now, I am the first to admit that family members can be just as dumb, if not dumber, than strangers. Somehow they feel the freedom to be idiots around things they feel belong to them. But I don't want to tell my little brother he's not allowed to play with my new puppy, just because I'm married and he's not in my "immediate family" or, rather, the dog's pack! ("Immediate pack"? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

So, with all that in mind, is it bad for the dog to teach him to be nice to people? To let kids pet him? I know that parents should teach their children to never touch a dog they don't know, but heavens, there are parents who do a lot more stupid things than never teach that to their children. Some day, I am bound to come across some five year old kid that *horror of horrors* runs up and jumps on top of my 70 pound, 8 year old retriever. I want my dog to know how to react in that kind of situation. I want him to sit there, and (if possible) enjoy the attention.

So to summarize without the details that make this post specific:

Is it really psychologically damaging to a pet dog, is it hurtful to your bond with the dog, to allow it to play with other people? What about other dogs? (All supervised.) If so, in what way?

Again, sorry for asking this question again, but I still haven't found an answer that applies to non-working dogs.

Thanks!
Amber

 Quote:

I understand not socializing a working dog.

I think you may have misinterpreted the previous threads. Not PETTING working dogs is one thing, not SOCIALIZING working dogs is another. You can absolutely socialize a dog without having everyone and their brother hanging all over it. All dogs should be socialized to a degree-not all dogs should be pet, fed, fawned over by anyone other than their handler. You keep running into these types of threads because this is a working dog forum, primarily, and while some things apply across the board, some do not. Family members are one thing-you (and others) may disagree with me, but I don't see why anyone outside the family needs to be all over your dog in the first place. Even family members (kids especially) need to be supervised with the dog regardless of the dog's purpose. Plenty of "pets" maul children every year. I think if I were you, I'd go back and keep searching old threads for general socialization posts, and you'll see that in general, no one is advocating completely isolating working dogs...keeping strangers off your dog is a way of preventing accidents and tragedies. Just because your dog's job is to be a pet does not mean that he doesn't have the same instincts that a working dog has, and therefore the same capacity to be dangerous in certain, PREVENTABLE situations. Pets are still dogs.

Okay, so what exactly is the difference between socializing and "fawning," as you say? What is socialization then? And are you saying that family members should or should not be allowed to play with your dog?

Amber-something I should have said: there are those who allow ONLY children to pet their working dogs. There is no need to allow adults this, but in the case of unattended children who just run right up to every dog they see and whose parents are too stupid to stop them, I can see some merit in teaching the dog to accept this. It's not the child's fault he/she was born to morons. They dog may not enjoy it, but he should accept it, IMO. I am always on the lookout for these kids when walking my dog because I don't trust ANY animal 100% in ALL situations.

Example (and rant): Normally, my dog is fine with kids, hateful toward men, but just this week he was at the vet for a torn ACL. If you have ever had this injury, you know how painful it is. An animal in pain is not always going to behave the way it does normally. I cannot believe that a parent would allow a child to literally RUN and almost jump on an obviously injured 100lb dog in an orthopedic specialist's office! Duh-there are no animals in here that are feeling up to snuff, and you allow your CHILD to approach them in this manner??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Many dogs would not take kindly to a strange child charging them when they're seriously injured. Of course, I probably wouldn't win a lawsuit against the parents for allowing their child to further injure my dog, but I'll bet if he lashed out, I'd be in court.

What I'm trying to say (though long-winded) is that no one is saying that it's "bad" for the dog to accept children. They are speaking, for the most part, from the perspective of preventing mishaps. I am glad that I have allowed children to *calmly* approach my dog in the past when they've asked, because I'm afraid that he would've reacted much worse had he not been "socialized" with kids-meaning around them and made to feel comfortable-not bombarded by them!

Ohhhhkay okay I'm getting the picture. Dogs are closely watched not for the sake of training or injuring your reputation with the dog, but for the sake of preventing someone getting hurt? Am I understanding correctly?

So assuming the dog was being watched and everything was supervised, it wouldn't hurt the dog in any way to allow it to play with children?

Thank you!

It would be nice to get a more experienced opinion here...I personally don't see too much harm in allowing a dog to play with children supervised, provided the children are taught what is appropriate and what is not, but keep in mind that your dog may be infinitely tolerant of your children, and not nearly as patient with "outside" children (not that he should have to be!). Just something to watch for.

Hi Amber,

I hope this goes some way to helping you.

I beleive that you should not allow anyone outside your family pack pet, feed or correct your dog, in fact these should only be done by you!

The whole socialising thing can be confusing and I like you am raising a pet and not a working dog of any description.

Keep the following in mind:
1.
Your dogs ability to let kids crawl all over it has NOTHING to do with socialising and everything to do with your dogs temperament. You can take you dog to as many fun fares as you like and he still might hate kids (like me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I find them too irritating and busy))

2.
You should be happy if your dog is wary of strangers as this may come in handy if one of these strangers takes a dislike towards you or your dog. Image if you were being mugged (heaven forbid) and the mugger told your very stranger friendly dog to sit/down while he took your purse?

3.
I have spend months (literally) reading about dogs since I got my first and have learnt that while it is vital to "Socialise" your dog, nothing is more important than the bond and training you provide for your dog.

My idea of socialising is to take my dog to lots of places and give him as many experiences of sight, sound and smell as possible with as little interaction with people and dogs etc. as possible.

HTH

John

Right. My question is mainly concerned with training though. It seems that the people who don't want a dog being played with by a bunch of people say it has an impact in training the dog. It gets confused because it's a pack animal, and doesn't understand why people who aren't in it's "pack" are playing with it. I'm just wondering if it would affect a pet dog all that much, or if it would really be shown more in a dog being used for protection or police (etc) work.

Speaking strictly from a pet owner perspective, I let anyone and everyone pet my dogs (supervised of course). My dogs job is to be the best family dog possible. They should be friendly to everyone once introduced and should never ever show aggression to any person after being given the okay. I encourage children to pet my dogs (supervised of course). I do not encourage adults but I will allow it unless I think they are a freak. As for family members, anybody I welcome in my house is allowed to interact responsible with my dogs.

With this said my dogs are NOT working dogs or ppd. I take my shepherd with me to work at night with the full understanding that if some bad guy approaches me I might get a bark or two but after that I am on my own.

Dog Parks are just flat stupid they are a tragedy waiting to happen.

I hope this answers your question from a purely pet owners perspective.

Okay, that makes sense. I guess I just can't imagine saying to my little brother, "No, I'm sorry, you can't play fetch with Sherlock, he's my dog, and you aren't in my family anymore because I'm married now." Tough luck!