In your opinion, can a dog with just medium toy drive do ok in Schutzhund?

the truth of the matter is that as the drive of a dog decreases the skill/experience of the handler required to train the dog increases. there are cases where very high drive dogs need experienced handlers becuase of their "tendencies" and quickness. but it depends on what you consider medium toy drive and what you consider to be "ok" in schutzhund as well. so many factors combine together to compose "drives" in a dog such as hardness clear-headedness focus intensity of drive and drive thresholds, but the answer to your question depends on what your interperatation of what "medium toy drive" is, and whether or not the dog is food driven.

So high food drive could compensate for lack of extreme toy drive?

not in my opinion, but you asked whether or not they would do "ok" in schutzhund, and the answer is if you have something to motivate them for OB, tracking, and protection then training in schutzhund is possible, but it doesnt mean that food drive compensates for toy drive, in fact in my mind toy drive is the first priority for schutzhund. everyone is different.

there was a bouvier in a club i belonged to who had no toy or food drive. he did title to schH2, and he worked for a brushing. he LOVED to be brushed, and the handler was advised to carry the brush with him and brush him as a reward. he did ok in schutzhund - he was never close to high in trial but he did pass and get his titles, so i think that is what you mean by 'ok'?

Wait, I'm not talking about a dog that has no drives at all. He does have some toy drive but he is not extreme like other SchH dogs I've seen. Plus he has high food drive.

Ok, Here's one way to look at it.

For the trainers that are using prey items as a reward during training, a genetic level of prey drive at "5" is the minimum that will give you a good success rate. So if your dog really has "medium" prey drive as you indicate, you should have no problem using standard prey reward.
I do see a trend for trainers new to the sport to over-rate their dogs prey drive level, so if your definition of medium is actually more like a level 3, you'll run into some problems here.

Food drive has been used for many years to train dogs ( Gottfried Dildi was entirely a food trainer during his coaching of the Florida crowd during the late 1980's to early 1990's ) and can be used with success by a handler trained in the method - but the flaw of the food method is that during a trial, an experienced dog may rapidly realize that it's not going to receive a reward ( i.e., no food ) and not work to it's level.
So you don't see the food reward used as much nowadays.

Any dog can ultimately be trained for SchH, even if it has crummy drives - but it'll usually require nasty compulsion and the dog will look horrible and unhappy on the field...and none of us want to do that to a dog. Hence getting a working a dog that has the correct level of drive needed is a much better way to go about training - the dog will be happier and you will be too.

Well, this is a dog that at home shows lots of ball/tug drive. He will cary his orbit ball or Jolly ball every where and will bring it to me to either tug with (jolly ball) or for me to throw (orbit ball). When I hold it in my hand, he does not take his eyes off of it. And if I bring out a tug, he goes crazy, jumping up on me for it and all. But then out in the field, he is easily distracted, if there are other dogs working in the field specially, he is more interested in them than playing with me/the toy. We are brand new at SchH, but I can see the difference with those toy nut dogs that just want the toy even if there is something else going on in the field.

While Gottfried Dildei primarily used food rewards in his training, he did not exclusively use food rewards...he liked to use a rubber hose as a toy reward also.

Many top level trainers use food rewards in their training...in fact the best trainers I am aware of use both toy and food rewards in their training.

Will, I disagree with you that any dog can be trained to a SchH title...not all canines have the drives or nerves necessary to withstand the stress of a trial. - Greg

Greg, for the 2ish years that I trained weekly with Gottfried, we only used the hoses as a play reward while walking down the field at the end of training.
I haven't trained with him for several years now, and if he's added prey items to his training, I'm glad to hear that.



As far as any dog can be trained to a SchH title, I've seen some very weak dogs get a title on their own training field with their own helper and a "Christmas comes early" type judge. That's one of the reasons that I've lost some of my respect for SchH in general, and some SchH organizations in particular. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />