Hi all,

New on the board...getting set up for whatever support we might need <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My wife and I (no children, 2 cats) are adopting a 4 year old, neutered male Akita on Friday. The present owners have an 18 month old boy and another on the way and aren't comfortable with a dominant dog anymore.

We've already worked with him on two separate occasions. 2 hours at his current house, and a half day with us, including a trip to the vet. Of course we haven't seen his real, relaxed personality yet, but he's super smart, has had obedience and remembers most of it, and is very food motivated. Not crate trained, nor trained or treated per the "Leerburg" model, i.e. more like an "average" dog, but he has lived with the prong collar his whole life.

I've never had a "dominant dog" before and have found the material on this site to be invaluable. The first time we met him he snapped at both me and my wife, but after only 1 food bribe I had him accepting commands with just praise in only a few minutes, and literally rolling over for love in about 30, all by implementing the "pack rules". When he was at our house I even got him to do a 20-foot sit-stay in the house, and outside his prey drive, while present, was very controlled while on lead (per the one squirrel and one chipmunk we saw <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> No sweat at the vet or in the car. A very good dog, especially considering he's known us for all of 6 hours!

My wife has had a harder time. He did not accept her so readily. He growled and snapped at her when she took the lead, but a couple of big corrections later she was in charge. He continued to test her the second time we had him with more growling, but I hope that once she becomes a food source (we're going to split that duty) this will cease to be an issue.

All in all I think it's going to go very well EXCEPT for one thing--our cats. We are going to use the formula as described in the article on dog-cat intro's: crate, muzzle, etc. I realize it's kind of a crapshoot here, so I have no preconceptions about success. But I am concerned at how well we are going to do with a 4 yo that's never been crated. We really only have about 3 days to introduce him to the crate before we need to get to work and leave him for a while. Any tips on how to optimize his crate intro would be most appreciated.

I also have some questions about play and a few other things, but for right now the biggest thing is to get him used to the crate without making him very unhappy.

Thanks for reading!

Scott

And you're jump-starting the experience with a DOMINANT ADULT MALE WHO'S NOT CRATE-TRAINED, NOT CAT-PROOFED & TREATS YOUR WIFE LIKE AN OFFENDING INFERIOR ?? Have I missed anything here ???

To begin with, no reputable breeder would sell this dog to someone who never owned a dominant male Akita before & no responsible Akita rescue organization would place this particular adoptee with people in your circumstances (if I understood your post correctly)...

IMHO, this situation has too many ear-marks of a disaster in the making -- My best advice would be for you to start off with a weanling bitch from a really good Akita breeder who will match the puppy's temperament with your level of dog-savvy & handling prowess <:-)

Don't like the sound of all that 'training' happening before the dog has settled in the house and 'accepted' you. Sounds too forced to me. I think you should lighten up and give the dog a few weeks before forcing him to do any obedience or anything. Show him the rules, but he has no reason to trust or obey you yet...if you do too much early on and he gets pissed off someone will get hurt. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hey Scott-

Welcome! While I agree with the general consensus that you may have a longish road ahead of you, I would respectfully disagree with any opinion that discourages you from proceeding, especially if the alternative to your efforts is that the dog goes to the pound or a shelter.

While there MAY be people that would be a better fit, until they magically appear, it sounds like you may be saving this dog from a lousy fate, and if so you should be commended.

DEFINITELY do your research and reading. (I got alot out of Ed's GROUNDWORK, article, when I was in a similar situation). Be careful and be patient. And be justifiably proud of the fact that your saving a dog.

Please read the last line in my above post as "...you're saving a dog."

 Quote:

Don't like the sound of all that 'training' happening before the dog has settled in the house and 'accepted' you. Sounds too forced to me. I think you should lighten up and give the dog a few weeks before forcing him to do any obedience or anything. Show him the rules, but he has no reason to trust or obey you yet...if you do too much early on and he gets pissed off someone will get hurt. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I have to disagree with this. This dog needs to be shown right away the rules and boundaries within this household. Letting a dog that has already shown aggression to family members alone for a couple weeks is a big mistake.

Sure the dog needs time to settle in but that's no reason not to establish a solid routine teach the dog what's expected of him while he is settling in. I think giving this dog even a couple days of just hanging out with no direction would be a really bad mistake.

They can be fair and bond with the dog during the dog's acclimation to the home. In my opinion I would advise these people to hire a trainer with experience with dogs like this and have a few good sessions with the trainer since they are new to this breed and temperament. I would get some professional help with this situation, and it could turn out fine.

Erm, I DID say 'show him the rules', didn't I? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is what I mean:

 Quote:

When he was at our house I even got him to do a 20-foot sit-stay in the house

Could be harmless, could make things worse. How many cases have we seen wherein the dog bites because obedience was done before any bonding happened?

 Quote:

Could be harmless, could make things worse. How many cases have we seen wherein the dog bites because obedience was done before any bonding happened?

Hmmm, I didn't expect some of this demotivation...

Anyway, I'm not going to give up that easily. I'm not a professional dog handler but I'm a mature, intelligent, educated, person. I've owned dogs. I've personally known several "dominant" dogs, including a couple of Akitas and got along with them fine. So if we can just put the whole idea that I'm headed for a train wreck aside (not out of view, just aside) for a little bit I'd really appreciate it.

I can't really say I've trained the dog at all, other than trained him to respond to my use of commands he knows, which he is doing surprisingly willingly on lead. I haven't tried off lead yet except for that one time. Not super fast, but he does them. Whether he gets mad at the change in his surroundings and decides to change his tune is a bridge I may have to cross.

My goals are set pretty low right now. I just want Tonka to get used to the new environment (house, land, crate, cats, us) and be well behaved on lead. He will arguably have a better environment (crate, more exercise, people to give him love, play, attention and something to do).

I'm trying to follow the guidelines given on this site for dominant dog groundwork. For example, we've probably gone through doors 20 times now. Each time I made him sit or stay first, then follow me when I call him. He got huge praise each time. Never off lead. Etc.

But this dominant dog stuff doesn't speak much to bonding, or play, or affection. So tell me: what sort of bonding activities should I do with a dominant dog? Short of obvious begging for love how do I know for certain when bonding is occuring or has occured?

Thanks,

Scott

In the case of what kind of bonding activities you can do with a dominant dog, my husky/Rott mix is actually rather Akita-like in nature and he came to me in October not letting anyone even roll him over on his side for a scratch or belly rub without trying to give a small warning snap to the air. Now I just get him in a lie down and slowly give him a nice massage and very slowly work him onto his side. He unequivocally knows I am the leader (he works for his food, we follow a strict NILIF/groundwork procedure, etc), but he doesn't like doing this in front of the other dogs, so he takes a few minutes to just relax. I speak in a low and calm (but not baby) voice and use my fingers like one of those happy massager things and whenever he tries to pop his head back up, I ease it back down and keep massaging. Within a couple minutes, he'll usually relax and roll on his side. This just tells him, hey, it's okay to just relax and be calm submissive, as Cesar Millan would say.

I think if you do a lot of research, I think you'll be okay with this guy, but be prepared to take it slow. Aloof, dominant dogs aren't solved in a day. But the good thing is, having one of these dominant sort of dogs does make you have to research it and ask other opinions, so I think you're probably on the right track for giving this dog a second chance because he'd probably be put to sleep right off if he was brought to a shelter. Good luck!

A) This Akita's owners are dumping him after 4 YEARS because they're afraid he'll attack the new baby (and they already have a 4 YEAR old child) so they probably know the dog has some serious AGGRESSION issues...

B) IMHO, he may or may NOT be a dominant dog, per se (Akitas are a "dominant" BREED to begin with, but not all Akitas have an "alpha" temperament) -- For instance, many truly dominant Akitas will NOT roll onto their back, or react submissively to strong corrections from a prong collar, even for their own master & would NEVER do so for a stranger, as this one apparently did; so his aggression issues might stem from causes other than dominance...

C) But with all that said, IF this dog has an "alpha" temperament OR is actually sharp/shy & he goes to a home where the new owners have little to NO experience with dominant 120+ pound adult male Akitas OR fear-biters, and they immediately throw many unfamiliar demands at him (without first doing 15-30 days of ALOOF groundwork & low-stress conditioning to begin establishing a good BOND) they are asking for real trouble of the Emergency Room & Plastic Surgery kind (!!!)

D) And Brock, if you're reading this, I know you mean well BUT, rescue dog temperament evaluation, adoptive owner screening & subsequent placement of the right dog in the appropriate new home requires MUCH hands-on experience & actually carries a weight of LEGAL liability, so it's better left to professional experts, IMHO