As some of you may know we have been addressing in house aggression on the Choke / check chain thread. I'm starting a new thread in hopes to attract a larger audience to the sub-topic which started on the former thread.

Quick run down: have 20 month, 90 pound Blue Chow. More aggressive to my 16 and 17 yr old humans than to my wife but I seem to be the one he belongs to. He favors me over anyone else. I have the dominant dog and e-collar training DVD's from Leerburg. I also have a dominant dog collar and a dogtra 1700ncp e-collar (I have had great e-collar success in only 2-3 months). Bruno is ONLY aggressive inside the house with family members. He gaurds his food so I feed him in a crate. He will not go all in rather stretch to reach the bowl at the furthest end of his crate. We follow all of the protocol such as no people food, no furniture, toys are ours not his, he goes in, out, up and down last etc. He's completed 3 obedience courses, earned his CGC, and we've seen a behaviorist in the past year. I mainly would like to stop his aggression toward family members while frequenting my house. I try to keep him either on a leash or at my feet when in the house but I'm not always home and the other members of my family seem to often forget to maintain the protocol in this aspect. Anyway, if you like, read the choke/check chain thread to get the full history or I'll be writing this all day.

Thanx for helping.

DZ Ed's comments edited in:

Eric - dont put the food in until after the dog is in the crate.

Read the article I wrote titled THE THEORY OF CORRECTIONS IN DOG TRAINING - its in my list of training articles. If the dog resists going into the crate - increase the level of correction until he does it without hesitation. Once he is in - then put the food it.

I would not allow family members to interact with this dog unless I was with the dog. Any signs of aggression would result in a level 10 correction. If there is a concern about handler aggression have the dog wear a muzzle.

Sorry, I forgot to ask. Could someone please remind me what GSD means and is there a way to post small pics in this forum?

DZ

GSD is short for German Shepherd Dog. The only place you are allowed to post pics on the Leerburg Discussion Board is in the New Members/Intro forum.

Eric,

I read your previous posts in check/check chains and have a couple of thoughts.

I have a dominant aggressive dog, so I can speak with some level of experience.

First, a couple of things stand out.

Contrary to popular opinion bullying this type of dog will not work. Bullying/fighting (dominant dog collar/hanging the dog) with this kind of dog will only serve to raise his level of aggression.

Second, avoid conflict. An aggressive dog thrives on conflict and welcomes confrontations with open arms.

Third, after reading your posts you seem to be doing a lot right, but I did notice on common thread. You seem to be a little overbearing, give him more freedom and responsibility (he needs a job, fetch or structured exercise). As a result of dominating his every move, he is taking every opportunity to dominate other members of the household. He is feeling bullied, he is your friend do not be so hard on him.

Fourth, forget the crate (avoid confrontation) and go back to hand feeding him. Also, I would have the other members of the household hand feed him also.

The bottom line of all of this is that he is feeling bullied, he does not feel/know/have enough confidence to take you on so he is taking it out on the other family members. If you quit bullying him he will feel more secure in himself and with the rest of the family.



Ed's Comments edited into this post:

Jack you are 100% wrong in your post here. I dont want new trainers to think that your comments are correct. I suggest that you get the DVD I did titled DEALING WITH DOMINANT AND AGGRESSIVE DOGS http//:leerburg.com/301.htm

 Quote:

Eric,

You seem to be a little overbearing, give him more freedom and responsibility (he needs a job, fetch or structured exercise). As a result of dominating his every move, he is taking every opportunity to dominate other members of the household. He is feeling bullied, he is your friend do not be so hard on him.

The bottom line of all of this is that he is feeling bullied, he does not feel/know/have enough confidence to take you on so he is taking it out on the other family members. If you quit bullying him he will feel more secure in himself and with the rest of the family.

OK, I have absolutely NO experience w/dominant aggressive dogs but would love to play Devil's Advocate with you. This post is meant for me (and others I suppose) to learn and not meant to attack your theories, just question them. Here goes: I too read the other thread and am having trouble finding where he is "bullying" his dog. From everything I read on Leerburg it seems like he (Eric) is offering boundaries, discipline and structure to his rather nasty dog.

Your comment, "he is your friend do not be so hard on him" stood out as well. This dog does not sound like a friend I would want. With a friend like this, who needs enemies?

To the original poster: Sorry if I'm not remembering correctly but I believe the you said something like, "If it weren't for the aggression toward the family, he'd be a great dog". That to me is like saying, "This Ferrari would be a great car if it only had an engine". Unabated aggression toward family members, to me, renders this dog as pointless as a Ferrari you can't drive.

I do plan on buying a 2nd GSD in the next few years. It is highly possible I end up with a dominant/aggressive dog. So, help me and others learn here. Isn't this dog challenging everyone in that house? Aren't these types of challenges an issue of rank (for the dog)? If I am correct, than wouldn't the owner's decision to back off send the wrong signal to the dog?

Thanks for listening and I would love to hear from others on whether the owner should be more relaxed in his role as pack leader or not.

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum as Jack. While there are dominant/tough dogs that will bever respect me and I can only be near as long as the chicken leg lasts (even with the fence inbetween), I will never live in a house with a dominant dog. I can be one heartless cookie when it comes to pack order. I have had good success with some dominant and aggressive dogs - they are on Ed's Dominant and Aggressive Dog DVD.

I disagree that a hanging correction will raise the level of aggression in a dog - perhaps Jack is used to handling dogs on the very extreme end of dominance aggression? Perhaps I put too much faith in the memory and learning abilites of a dog.

The approach you have taken for 6-8 months - redirecting the dog/avoiding conflict isn't working. IF it did work, you wouldn't be posting. Avoiding conflict is great- don't get me wrong, but when the dog is initiating the aggression, redirecting doesn't work. It reinforces the dog's idea that aggression gets him what he wants. There MUST be a tough, unpleasant course of action when redirection fails.

Eric, from what you've written, it SOUNDS like you're doing everything right. IF that is the case, I would dial everything up a couple notches. I would be controlling every element of the dog's life. I would be withholding food and water (to be used as rewards for appropriate behavior) and be keep the electric collar on whenever he is not in the crate. I would not allow the dog any freedom or priviledge. I would NEVER ask or allow another person to handle the dog. I would exercise the dog as much as possible by swimming, treadmill etc. I would require constant obedience. When the dog changes his thinking, then I change my approach. I may ask for less constant obedience, give the do more time confined away from me. I begin to add more positive motivation in obedience, I gradually work down from super-structure down to regular groundwork.

I bet you think I'm EVIL -- I take a firm stance on dominance aggression with dogs I handle - it is never acceptable.

You have a festering problem (for over a year) even with all the obedience and groundwork you have done. You tried the behaviorist's way and you see that it only works to some degree. You will not like what I write, but hopefully you like this advice better than allowing your kids getting bitten. You have put a lot into this dog already, you have done the obedience training that you can use to control his behavior. Considering the dog's age and breed, it's time you get as tough as he is.

Judy, I so agree with every thing you said in your reply to Jack. I feel the need to add this comment, too:
I totally disagree with "Forget the crate". I am amazed that this was offered as sound advice to a person with a dog who has showed aggression to family members while eating. To the point of baring teeth and snapping. IMO, the safest place for this dog to be eating is in his crate, unless and until he learns his proper rank in the family. Or maybe he should eat in his crate from now on.
Eric, it sounds to me as if you are doing your best to keep your family safe around this dog. Since you say you have read Ed's Dominant/Aggressive dog articles and have his DVD's I can't think of any advice I could offer you that would be better than Ed's. I wish you luck with your Chow.

Yep, stick with Ed Frawley's methods, because they WORK <:-)

To the original poster: Sorry if I'm not remembering correctly but I believe the you said something like, "If it weren't for the aggression toward the family, he'd be a great dog".

If you read Eric’s posts he stated that the dog was not aggressive towards him but two younger (16-17 year old) family members. So the dog is not completely unmanageable or unapproachable, but there are certain triggers.

Isn't this dog challenging everyone in that house? No, the dog does not challenge him, but the two younger members.

Aren't these types of challenges an issue of rank (for the dog)? No they are an issue of dominance, not for the Alpha role (he does not challenge Eric) but with other members of the pack.

Eric inadvertently has made the dog feel insecure in his own pack; he does not know his place and will not accept the bottom. Since the dog feels suppressed he takes it out on two lesser members of the pack.

If the dog is truly dominant, hanging the dog will do nothing but raise his level of confrontation each time. If Eric takes an easier tone the dog will feel less of a need to protect his space, food, or trying to dominate something.

If you reads Eric’s previous post he is doing all of the ground work, doors, beds, etc. but still having the issue. So you have to ask why? Dog’s do things for a reason, in this case the dog feels insecure in his rank.

You may believe that every dog should be at the lowest level in the house but that is not necessary or in the case of a dominant dog attainable. The dog just needs to feel secure in his rank, wherever that may be. There are a lot of dogs in the world that are the “head” of the household yet do not bite or take down a member of their pack. If you try to make a truly dominant dog the Omega of the pack you are doing nothing but creating a time bomb. He will never accept that position and you are actually raising your chance of getting bit.


If I am correct, than wouldn't the owner's decision to back off send the wrong signal to the dog?

It could, but it may not. In my case I had a dominant/handler aggressive dog that by working with rather than against solved my issues.

Jack,

I thought the same way you do before I was attacked and bitten 3 separate times by a handler-aggressive Chow mix I was training. I require every dog in my house becomes a calm submissive pet - they are secure in their rank.

 Quote:

If the dog is truly dominant, hanging the dog will do nothing but raise his level of confrontation each time.

Hanging is, IMO, the only correction which does not raise the level of confrontation. If it does, it was done incorrectly. The only dog you could possibly be referring to is one that values his rank more than his life.