I think it depends on the breed. All I can say is what my experience was with my own dog. I had a GSD/ACD for nearly 16 yrs. I'd say she was an alpha or a beta type of dog as far as being dominant or submissive went. She was strong, constantly testing me to see if I was strong enough to be her leader (every single day until she was about 10). heh, heh, brings to mind the song "are you strong enough to be my person..." She would see other people as equals, which I know is a breed charactreristic of the ACD.

this is very interesting to me, because i've always, always had submissive, easygoing dogs--until the latest. and he is super strong. and i don't think i or my handling methods or ownership style changed.

this dog was strong right out of the box, from the day he arrived. he has forced me to reexamine my ownership style, and be much tougher than i've ever had to be with a dog before.

so perhaps your grandfather's observation makes a good general rule. but sometimes dogs are natural born leaders....

there is a serious misunderstanding about what a pack leader is and isn't. some people just naturally "get it" and some never will. some folks think that being a pack leader is just simply that you are more dominant that the dog. and this is precisely the reason so many macho fellas get in trouble with their combative dogs. dogs DO NOT have a problem with authority. what they do have a problem with is people who are not deserving of that authority. i have already written on this topic a number of times and my view is not a very popular one beause it exposes the darker side of humanity and the very reasons why some dogs refuse to accept the authority of certain people. i will just say this: "while you are busy evaluating the character and temperament of your dog, you can be sure that he is also doing the same to you."

I agree that some people just naturally get it. It seems such a shame to me that dogs can learn some of our language and behaviours, but too few people learn theirs. Researching how dogs communicate with each other in a pack may not insure that people become natural pack leaders, but I think it will certainly help them understand why their dog is doing what they're doing, and how they can change their behaviour so as to change their dog's.

Your Grandfather sounds like such a cool guy <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's too bad you didn't get to meet him, but fortunate that you have his journals. I would think his way of assesing people would work most of the time, though not always. For me most of the time my dogs are respectful to the point that sometimes just a withering look is enough to send them to their beds. But I HAVE had strong, hard dogs. Our stud-dog comes immediately to mind. He is a sweetheart and listens well, but not for everyone. So even though he's not necessarily tough for me, I know that he is a tough dog. I think a natural pack-leader doesn't need to use a lot of force (in an average situation). I think it's more about personal temperament. The one time that I had difficulty with my dogs as a pack (I always seem to have 3 or more) was when one of my dogs had passed away, and I was so grief-stricken that I was no longer an effective leader. During that time, two of my dogs (Greyhounds!)that had coexisted peacefully for seven years got into a HORRIBLE fight. One dog took over 150 stitches and it cost me over $2000. I realized that I needed to get back "at the helm." After they physically recovered, I never had a problem with those two dogs (or ANY of them) again. In hindsite I realize I had failed them because not only had they lost a pack member, but the leader was totally useless. That fight was entirely my fault. The funny thing was, I hadn't done anything differently. The routine and expectations remained the same. It was only my attitude that had changed. I normally have a strong personality, but I was so sad that I felt week. I thought it was kind of interesting that just that could make such a difference.

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there is a serious misunderstanding about what a pack leader is and isn't. some people just naturally "get it" and some never will. some folks think that being a pack leader is just simply that you are more dominant that the dog. and this is precisely the reason so many macho fellas get in trouble with their combative dogs. dogs DO NOT have a problem with authority. what they do have a problem with is people who are not deserving of that authority. i have already written on this topic a number of times and my view is not a very popular one beause it exposes the darker side of humanity and the very reasons why some dogs refuse to accept the authority of certain people. i will just say this: "while you are busy evaluating the character and temperament of your dog, you can be sure that he is also doing the same to you."

Patricia, I must say that I agree with you.

It is a matter of mutual respect as opposed to trying to dominate. I believe that many dogs who are treated unfairly become harder to control and try harder to dominate thus creating a vicious cycle. You can almost see the anger and hardness in their eyes. It becomes a vicious cycle.

Dogs should not be treated as humans. These are the folks that have the most problems IMO. Like you said, some people "get it" and some never will. It is important to recognize your own abilities and limitations and choose a dog that fits you and your temperament.

Best regards,
Debbie

I agree...there is more to it than simply dominating your dogs. A pack leader should effectively be able to communicate to the dog to the point that the dog knows what to expect...and they should be a symbol of benevolent power to the dog, so that the dog realizes the pack leader will always take care of everything and that the pack leader is always fair. A dog that is secure in that it knows it is safe and understood will often be a 'good' dog, regardless of formal training...

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I agree...there is more to it than simply dominating your dogs. A pack leader should effectively be able to communicate to the dog to the point that the dog knows what to expect...and they should be a symbol of benevolent power to the dog, so that the dog realizes the pack leader will always take care of everything and that the pack leader is always fair. A dog that is secure in that it knows it is safe and understood will often be a 'good' dog, regardless of formal training...

This is a great way to express the meaning of leadership.

Since dealing with Bruno I have been thrown into the dog training mode and it seems being a leader for people is very closely related to being a leader of dogs. And the "Get it" theory applies to so many things in our lives I wouldn't even attempt to give examples, there are to many. Unfortunately I think many people see pets as throw away things. If it doesn't suit them or becomes more work than they are ready for, off to the pound. Then, as mentioned in Ed's videos, some people never realize they are promoting the dog's dominance by allowing things they shouldn't, then get mad at the dog for not listening. It's always been this way and always will be. If we try and make people get certified or a permit, after learning what it takes to really care for a certain pet, we are infringing on their rights. The way I see it, these pre-requisits would only infringe on their right to mistreat or neglect their animals. I've said it before and believe it, we as a society will be our own undoing. Yet still, it's great to have these forums where so many people actually care! You guys rock!