A quick question.

My GSD (Axel) has high food drive so training with food is easy, but he also goes nuts for prey items, so in addition to Ed's Basic Ob DVD which I have used as the basis for the work done with Axel, I bought Building Drive and Focus (after working with Basic).

When we got Axel, we decided to not train for Sch (although Axel's parents are both titled including father being a "big-shot" - Urban vom Gleisenhauer Schloss) because at the time we wanted a "family dog". We have two children, kindergarten and 2nd grade and lots of friends come over to play (Axel is either in kennel or I am right there/eyes on when friends are around even though he is very friendly and wants to play with them - I take no chances).

I bought the video for bonding purposes and to learn additional training techniques that don't have to include bite work and it worked great. He loves his Orbee Ball and took to Flinks methods very quickly including focus, into my arms, out etc. But, one day I was out in the yard with my kids and Axel seemed a little too excited/rough with my daughter and her toy (he went after it as she was pulling it away, just like I trained him to) and my mind immediately flashed to me building drive with the Orbee and I got worried that he might excitedly go after one of the kids toys (accident may happen) due to my working with him so I stopped using the Orbee.

Here is the question; Has anyone with experience in this area found that building drive via Flinks techniques will cause confusion in the dogs mind regarding other items that children may be playing with (anything other than Orbee) leading to a dog that will go after the kids toys while the kids are playing creating an accident condition?

Maybe the real question is; if identical dogs (if there was such a thing) were taken - one trained for sch and one simply ob trained, would they act the same around the family - be the same family pet? (I know there is experience in this area here).

He is only 18 mo. and his excitement will probably drop as he gets older, but I'd love to get back to the Orbee training asap so any help here is greatly appreciated.

Best Wishes for a great 2007,

Geoff

I work with border collies and do SAR, so I won't answer about the sch. However I have used Flinks method with my dogs and have a 2.5 year old son. I avoided the problem by having rules about the kids playing with the dogs. They at no time play tug, and to play fetch my dogs will out the toy on the ground so the child can pick it up and throw. So my dogs understand at no time should their mouth be on anything a child has in his hand. If my son runs up and grabs what is in my dogs mouth, the dog should out it right away. This aviods the dog ever getting worked up and grabbing at something in a kids hand. I practice it everyday and ALWAYS keep watch when the dogs and kids are together. No matter the drive in the dog, any family dog should be able to learn manners if trained to.

I also think dogs can learn what are their toys and what are not. My dogs are not allowed to play with my sons toys, and they learned very quickly which is which.

As far as a Schutzhund dog would act the same as a "pet Dog" gsd, well yes, it all depends how you raised both dogs but my female is a Schutzhund dog and she socializes in the house and out .Makes no difference.When it comes to the bite work ,she know how to turn it on and off.That's what make a good dog is one that can be dual and have a solid temperament,confident..My PPD dog is different, but you sure can make your dog a Schutzhund dog , it won't change the way he acts around your friends coming over or other kids if that is what he always has been around.Schutzhund does not make a dog aggressive or unsecure or , leary about strangers. if anything you will have a better obedient dog and one that tracks for you...
Go for it......

http://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r77/cadogancna/

Hi Geoff

I was a bit worried about your concerns with my young sch prospect. I decided to give her a cue to begin the drive/bite work. She is not allowed to grap something on her own without my "OK, the game has started". This has helped a bunch. I can carry a ball around, tie it to my belt, whatever, without her jumping and grabbing on her own.

Lynn

Geoff,

I too own a dog that I had planned on only being my pet and had not origionally intended her to be a working dog. One of the first things I taught her was the OUT. My reasoning was that the animal is just that - not human - and a predator to boot.

The more OB I did the hungrier I got for more and more training. I have since become very involved in all kinds of dog training aspects. Anyway, my point is that if you do not intend to work this dog in trials then use the drive building for your reward system for good behavior (very effective in high-drive dog) and don't be afraid to over-practice the OUT. If your little ones are being approached by the dog in a manner that suggests to you the dog is recognizing the scenario as a drive game then use the well rehearsed OUT (and maybe a sit or down) to gain control of the situation and reward the dog yourself with the drive toy.

However, if you do plan to work this dog then you should be very careful of over doing the OUT because now my dog's grip is not up to par because of the foundations I put in place when she was a puppy.

The other thing is that the dog should not be trained to recognize the kids toys as "kids toys" and the dog toys as "his toys" -- they should all be percieved as "YOUR toys" by the dog.

I just want to make clear that all the toys are my toys to my dog, but there are toys he is allowed to put his mouth on and toys he is not. So saying "his" toys is just a way to state toys he is allowed to play with. I controll them, he never gets his controlled toys without my allowing it. I would not allow my family dog to leap at anything in my child's hands ever, not even if I was going to compete or work him. I would train and train and train so that it didn't happen and again always watch.

Sarah,

Oh I hear ya! I could tell from the original message that you are diligent about monitoring your dog; I was glad to see that as most take ownership very much for granted. There was no insult meant in my comment... hope you didn't interpret one from reading the post. The fact that you (and the dog ) view objects as "your toys" is great; I just thought I'd throw that out there in case you weren't aware of the idea.

Still reading this thread with interest!!

Bradley, it sounds like you and I(plus hubby Gary) got into this sport on similar paths. We got our first GSD because we wanted a GSD. THEN we learned of Schutzhund sport and on the story goes to our current level of training and involvement (very novice!).

With our first GSD, we trained the "out" as a puppy like we had done with other previous pet pups. For us the issue wasn't related to children (we don't have any) but for general puppy safety first (i.e. pup grabs electrical cord) and sanity second(i.e. pup chews up a shoe).

Of course we subsequently were chastised for this. GSD1 does have some training issues in the bite work arena (i.e. her grips are full, and they are calm, but they are not as hard as we would like in addition to some other stuff we're working on). While some would say "we ruined her by training the out to early" I'm not sure I'm buyin' that. Because...fast forward to GSD2.

With GSD2, we were in a position to make better informed decisions about household life based on experience with GSD1. After lengthy discussion, we decided to teach GSD2 the out the same way we did GSD1, because for us our dog's roles as active household companions is more important to us than SchH field performance. We enjoy both, and respect that other's priorities differ. That's just us.

The fact that we taught GSD2 the "out" as a puppy (for his safety and our sanity) does not appear to have impacted his grip work for field work at all. While it took us a long time to work on drive building, and to basically "sell" him that all phases of SchH training are FUN for him (that was a painful period) his protection phase training is awesome. Full, calm, hard grips and LONG carries and LONG cradles. We haven't introduced the "out" in the bite work yet (we're currently on hold & bark in the blind - but he gets the prize) but I think his early training in his situtation will probably work well for him. The "out" on the training field HAS been introduced in the context of two-toy work/OB foundation, and he did responded to that immediately, with no problems.

Each of our dogs has strenths to be valued, and weaknesses to be improved. I'm pretty convinced (although LOL - my sample size is very small) that the early training of "out" for safety and sanity purposes didn't make much difference in either dog.

I do appreciate a point I think you were making - that "over doing it" is what you recommend against, and I agree with that. While not by plan, once we taught the puppy outs and they were reliable, we didn't do that just for fun - only when safety or sanity were involved. Sitting and platzing for toys/treats were reinforced for fun.

Bradley, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. I'm no expert, and I love this board for the exchange of ideas and all we can take away from that for future consideration!

Beth

Beth,

I'm not exactly sure what thoughts you are asking me for.

With my pup my motivation was purely for public safety. I was pretty much brand new to anything dog with the exception of the few family dogs we briefly had as I was growing up. So, wanting my own dog I went to the local pound. I don't regret getting a mutt but my next dog will be a pure from working lines. Anyhow, I was in the military and living on base with no shortage of screaming running kids all around my place and I just figured that I was asking a predator to mind its P's and Q's in a human world' ?hmmm?. I was thinking that if she did grab hold of some local kid that I at least I would have the confidence she would let go under command.

I'm sorry Bradley - as you can see I get very long winded at times. (well, nearly all the time LOL!)

I've gotten the advice that teaching "out" to a pup destined for SchH work is a no-no. I've done it twice... and I'm not convinced at all that teaching the "out" very early for safety and sanity made any difference at all in the quality of the bite work. It's my opinion that the difference in quality with the two dogs is genetic + training WAY more than teaching the baby pups to "out" things they shouldn't have in their mouth.

I'm just wondering what you think.... Maybe that will be a better question once you have gone through the process with 2 different dogs. I just don't automatically buy the "your dog has XXX problems with bite work because you taught the dog to "out" too soon."

Maybe the early "out" training made some sort of difference for us with GSD1. But it's a difference I'm willing to live with (for safety and sanity purposes) and I just don't buy that she was "ruined" because of it.

Congratulations on being a proud rescue owner! I respect everyone's choice about what dogs they choose to own and care for. But we will always have at least one rescue around here! Our Mixed Mutt Of Unknown Origin is a frisbee girl, and our rescued Beagle is a ringer on the track.

Beth