Hello all!

I'm a lurker. I've been reading a bunch of the articles on this site and various topics all have been speaking of on these boards. My wife and I just got a Lab Retriever pup from a rescue shelter. She's 8-10wks and was a stray (here in Iowa it's been VERY COLD!) We're completely unaware if she spent much time with the mother or her litter.

We've actually gotten her used to going outside already and haven't had an accident in the house since the 1st day we had her; this has been a blessing.

She is, however, EXTREMELY aggressive. We've tried many of the diversion techniques like offering her another toy instead of our arms/hands. This hasn't worked. She doesn't seem to be praise motivated at all, and actually appears (the snarl, charge back to lunge) to want to do harm to us when we're petting her for any time more than a few seconds.

We have also tried the scruff shaking and things, and this has only further worsened the problem. For me she gets very very growly but will eventually acquiesce. But when my wife does this pup gets very angry and will settle down long enough to be let up, whereupon she'll go for my wife's face/throat.

We haven't had this pup for very long, and realize the journey in training, but I can't allow the pup to attack my wife. It just seems like nothing fazes her.

Anyone have any tips?

If he gets worse on a scruff shake then you ain't doing it hard enough to get thru to him. He needs to believe what you're trying to tell him.

Diversion to toys is for diverting a nipping playful puppy, not a pup that's actually aggressive. If the dog is really this aggressive at 10 weeks old then you're in for a nightmare at maturity in another year or so.

 Quote: Matthew Moore

Anyone have any tips?

I would suggest buying the Dealing with Dominant & Aggressive Dogs DVD

in my very under-educated opinion, i'd say what you're doing is losing a challenge. here's the way i understand it: any time you grab your dog's snout, "alpha role", "alpha roll" (i don't really get the redundancy here, from what i gather this is the same thing, but "role" doesn't involve physically flipping the dog on his/her back?), scruff, shake, etc... you're picking a challenge with your dog, which you then must win.

it's my understanding if you're going to go this method, you have to shake the shit out of him, you have to physically dominate him and he has to know it. alpha roling (et al) larger, more mature dogs is dangerous because there's a very real chance you could lose the challenge (which can not only injure you badly, but it'll set you back a lot at the very best), but i guess with a puppy you can't lose very easily unless you're giving up too weakly.

most people whos opinions i respect would say that the better alternative is to enforce rank through your body language and everyday activities. i haven't had any rank challenge issues from either of my girls since i started doing simple things like not letting them run up/down the stairs before me, or through doors before me, or giving them some of my food while i'm eating (if they get any,it's after). let's just assume you're already doing that - if you're not you should get on it.

but to recap: if you growl at your dog because he's bad, then shake him a bit and let go, he could be taking it as you backing down.

please note when reading this that i don't pretend to have anywhere near the knowledge others on this forum have - if someone else writes something contradictory, it trumps this without question.

EDIT: but yes, i would definitely recommend the abovementioned dvd, above my own advice.

This is a 10 week old puppy displaying this behavior?
I would have to venture that the bitch (mother) may have been an under-socialized dog also.

I would crate train the pup and only let the pup do something when and if you allow it. No running around the house, no toys unless you want to play, no food unless it is hand-fed. Definitley no "up on the furniture" or catering in anyway. I am not in any way saying to crate the pup all the time, but when you have her out, make sure that you are in control and take is slow with her. Keep a leash on her so that if things go wrong you can take hold of the leash and regain control. I agree with scruffing a pup this young, however, she may be a bit too young to lay out on the floor. It may be making the situation worse.

When I get a new dog into my place and there are aggression type issues, it usually stems from the owners not knowing any better and they though it was "cute" until the dog got big enough to actually do damage. I usually kennel the dog for a few days to a week if not more, until I get the "please I will do anything for you, just take me out" look. They get fed, watered and their kennels cleaned out but no real interaction other than that. This also gives the dog time to adjust and take in the new sights, sounds and smells of their new "temporary" home.

You need to teach the dog that you are pack leader and I agree with the DVD selection, however this is a young pup that obvioulsy escalates when you are scruffing or laying her out.
If you have not had her for very long and she is aggressive like this, maybe there has not been enough time for her to relax and take in her new surroundings. She is a stray that from the sounds of it has been on her own, she does not know warm, giving humans to be "okay" yet.

Sounds to me like a trust issue and with a pup that young, you should be able to turn it around with positive results.
Good luck and keep us posted.

When I read questions like this, I always get the feeling people are looking for or need time frames for a solution. While I have no idea how long certain behaviors take to correct, I'm guessing behavior like this could take months to correct. Not only to establish a pack leadership role, but also for the dog to mature enough to "get it".

I look at it as, it takes as much time as the dog/puppy needs to where you are not "forcing" the dog to comply but rather giving and recieving a nice balance of having the "will" to do what we want them to do.

I agree with most of what was said. Have to interject, as someone pointed out, this is a 8-10 wk old baby. Rough behavior with a puppy this young is unfair. My pup at that age appeared aggressive with me at times, and got worse as the weeks went by. I may not be able to contribute to this thread with any amount of expertise, but IMO there is no way I would shake a pup that young, no matter how aggressive it "seemed". I believe that will only make matters worse. What I can say is that a calm confident manner is crucial. And another thing I can say is that in my experience as my pup got older, there was no way that scruffing him, or laying him down or pushing him away or grabbing his muzzle did anything but make matters worse. A fighting dog loves the fight and thrives on it. You have got to be more than a littermate that rough plays (and that's what it is to the pup). I don't believe it's aggression on her part at all. I do believe however that the pup is starting to get afraid. Figuring it was out on its own (even for a short while), it already tasted fear.

The pup needs a calm unafraid (of getting bit) leader. I believe the pup feels you intend to do it harm when you get physical with her, that's why the snarling and growling and coming back to bite you. She's afraid. That's my take on it. She needs to be able to trust you, that you won't hurt her. This isn't to say that you would, but SHE doesn't know that.

The groundwork needs to be done as has been posted. Ed Frawley has also written groundwork rules for puppies, and for adult dogs (articles on this site). I will admit that I was a softy with my hard tough pup and let him get away with too much biting. Even though I know better now, I still would not be rough with him at 8-10 weeks if my life depended on it. He also didn't like to be petted. Now he loves it. He also seemed to want to do me harm when he would lunge at me to bite me. As long as I had that alarmed type feeling, I had no control. That's why calm and confident is the key. And leash control at all times. And mentally working him (training small things with no corrections at that age). My 7 mo old pup has no intention of doing me harm, never did, I assumed incorrectly.

It sounds like your pup has a hard temperament, if nothing fazes her. She's a tough cookie. But still a baby. As far as not responding to praise, again, she's still a baby and has no idea what that is. She will after a while.

See I'm not looking for a time frame. I do understand she's a puppy. But I'm hard pressed to be calm and understanding in an instance like tonight when she actually broke skin in my forearm while I was petting her. She doesn't want to play with the ball on a rope, and she approaches all of her toys with this aggression. We do keep her leash on her, but I'm kind of nervous to do a hard yank on her when she's getting on my wife because I'm afraid I'd hurt her neck badly.

No matter what though, taking out my attempts at alpha behavior, she's not yet allowed us to be loving towards her.

It's so strange because I did have a lab shepherd mix pup eight or nine years ago, and when she got aggressive layouts straightened her right up QUICKLY. I never would have thought this pup would present such a challenge to me.

I can understand where you are frustrated. I also think that you know that you cannot put a time stamp on things.

Has you taken her to the vet yet for a thorough check-up?

I would really try the crate and no interaction unless you initiate and if she likes something better that something else, then go with what she likes for a bit until she gets 100% used to it. Add one thing at a time until you are sure she is comfortable and confident with it.


Handfeeding her is a biggie here I think. ALL her meals for a while. Water can still be in a dish though..
It may be a pain, but handfeeding really helps to build trust and it helps her learn that contact is okay. I would not try and pet her while she eats though, not for awhile anyway.

I would also stop the scruffing and laying out for a week or so to see if that helps. Sometimes what works for one dog does not necessarily work for another.

At this point you seem like you are at a loss a little bit, the worst thing you can do is try a new approach.
I really am cheering for you because I think this is a savable situation.