It take 3 to 5 times longer to retrain an exercise than it does to teach it correctly the first time.

With this said you have a long term process here and you may not get it done.

If it were my dog I would not take the prey item away while I was working him until I was finished and it would not be in the training area.

I would do one focus session and then run the dog, bring him into my arm for 1 second then run and 1 second into the arm and repeat this. I would not extend it until the dog did not chew during this 1 second delay in my arms.

When I had that I would extend it to 2 seconds then 3 seconds.

Bottom line is the dog needs to learn that coming into the arms does not mean loosing the tug. This is going to take time.

I would also like to see what the dogs grip is like on a sleeve. Grip is not an issue on the KNPV (thats one of the serious faults of this dog sport) - if the dog is chewy on the sleeve and you want to do schutzhund - well you have your work cut out for you.

Or you may have the wrong dog.

Thanks for the reply Ed,
What you suggest is kind of what i have been trying to do, the problem is that when i try and bring him into my arms he is dropping onto the ball to guard it.
I will persevere and let you know how i get on
Regards Gary

Gary,

Try putting a long cord on the ball, one that you can hold while the dog is being run in a circle. You can keep a little bit of constant tension on the ball and later (as dog improves) inadvertantly tug the cord. Same priciple as the existing string on the ball but you can manipulate the prey item from a distance. This worked well for me when working on a grip that was good "in my arms" but not circling (or other times away from me) because the dog learned pretty quick to tighten up when it got close because I may try to take the prey item away.

You got the advise from the horse's mouth on the "into my arms", the trust has to be built up slowly. I beleive the video even states that the purpose of this exercise is to build the dog's trust for the handler when it has the prey item and to give the dog something to do when they finally get it instead of laying on it and chewing.

 Quote: gary ball

Thanks for the reply Ed,
What you suggest is kind of what i have been trying to do, the problem is that when i try and bring him into my arms he is dropping onto the ball to guard it.
I will persevere and let you know how i get on
Regards Gary

Hi Gary, I cannot (and am not trying to) offer you training advice. Just some words of encouragement. I train weekly with a relatively new Mali owner (his first working dog, and his first go at SchH sport titles). This guy did an awesome job on his own, working with the Bernhard videos and additional advice on this site getting some great OB foundation going. When he first started coming to train with us, his Mali had similar issues from the sound of things, that you are describing - a bit of a "frantic" type grip as opposed to a full, calm grip.

Our trainer has worked with this team to improve the grip work. As Ed described, it has come in very small doses - a second or two of calm cradling - and then big "carries" (before the dog can think about dropping the item, running in the big circle while the dog holds the object) over, and over, and over again.

This team has been at this exercise for many weeks. While improvement might be hard to see if you don't know what you're looking for, it's there. The grips are getting a lot calmer, and the "cradling" goes on longer. The successful "carries" are much bigger now. The "object" has gotten a bit tougher to grip and hang onto firmly and calmly for the dog. It's been a methodical process (and I'm sure frustrating at times for the handler) but it's working.

This is the sort of thing we experience every week - whether with your own dog or watching another team suffer through it - that reminds us that patience is king in this sport.

This Mali has high potential to be a very flashy and effective OB dog from a trial perspective. He's quick, he loves it, his handler is athletically capable, it's very pretty to watch. They continue their OB development through 2-toy play, but have incorporated some of the cradling/carrying concepts into their "homework" that help with the grip work - and the results are obvious, even if the process is slow and somewhat tedius.

Like I said - just words of encouragement from a fellow novice. Suffer through the small "grains of sand" levels of improvement, and celebrate the "pebbles" or "stones" you uncover along the way.

Best Wishes!
Beth

Thanks for the advice and encouragement
He has finaly started coming into my arms whilst he has the ball and is letting me stroke his head.
Here's a picture of my Boy Sparky

Dear Gary,
Most of the time, KNPV Malinois are really high drive. Sometimes, this kind of type of dog you have to work him in a different way.
Allow me to explain.
Yes, like you say this type of dog they get really mouthy and chewy on the tug/ball and because of their high drive I work them in a different way.
I work them in a calm way. This is one of my techniques, maybe it can help you.
What I do I put a harness on the dog, put him to a 4ft leash and attatch it to a post. I have the ball attatched to a cord and the cord is attatched to between a 4ft to 5ft piece of bamboo and the cord is the same length. I agitate the dog with the ball using the stick like a fishing pole and I bring the dog in high drive and that's something I always want to bring out from my dog.
The calm part comes in when I let him bite the ball and like I said I use the bamboo like a fishing pole, when he bites the ball I strike back like I got a fish and I keep the rope under tension.
This way if he starts chewing on the ball he will lose the ball.
Probably the first few times he will lose the ball but watch out how quickly he starts to understand if he wants to keep his prey,he has to bite hard and lock.
That is when you (keeping the rope attatched to ball under tension) start walking really slowly without saying anything towards the dog to the point you find yourself a few inches away from the dog.
Remember you still have the rope in tension because when you were walking towards him you were reeling in the rope,the dog is attatched to the post so there is constant tension on the ball so he locks on to the ball. And that is when with two fingers ,pet him between his nose and eyes with a soft voice you tell him good boy.
Repeat this exercise several times to the point he understands what you want from him. He will understand you do not want to take the ball from him ,you just want him to hold on and he can keep the ball. He also understands if he starts to become mouthy or chewy he will lose the ball because immediatly you will pull it away from him with a jerk, sideways in the mouth.
Try to make him come to the point that he feels comfortable enough to sit and hold onto the ball in a calm manner.
This is a technique that sometimes can help with mouthy dogs.
And alot of times really good for puppies with high drive.
Let me know if this helps.

Regards,
Francesco Carotenuto
wwwk9Nation1.com

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