Someone once said that the bond with their dog is the most important part of their relationship. They also said that handlers should not allow food and toys to come in between that bond as the dog should bond and respond to the handler and not to the food/toy. This person advocated training without these things.

I'd like to ask this forum's readers if they agree or disagree with this philosophy and why. Thank you.

My thought on this is that bonding with your dog is one thing and training your dog could be something different. A dog that is closely bonded but not trained is not going to work for you in any way due to lack of training. I've seen obedience dogs preform in the AKC ring but when being taken to the car tear across the parking lot completely ignoring their owners frantic calls. I'd say that's trained but not very well bonded. Food/toys allow training to take place in a very positive/non threatening way so that the pre-existing bond is re-inforced while showing your dog what you want it to accomplish. They become a tangible perk for the dog that re-inforces they have done the correct thing. They function the same as a "good dog" and/or a pat on the head. Eventually the food/toys are faded out and the verbal praise/physical praise suffice. I don't believe they take the place for dog/handler bonding at all. They are training aids to make training more fun for the dog which can bring about faster results.

The first post said "They also said that handlers should not allow food and toys to come in between that bond as the dog should bond and respond to the handler and not to the food/toy. This person advocated training without these things"

Th person who told you this this is a total fool (please tell them I said this). He does not understand dog training, he (or she) does not understand training in drive and I feel sorry for his dogs. If you listen to this kind of foolishness your dog training will suffer.

Interesting statements.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever heard of the man they call the horse whisperer - Monty Roberts. I'm not going to say a dog is like a horse. This man achieves what very few can with horses - he knows how to communicate with them. He uses no food or toys. Yet, within a very short time they trust him. Why is it so hard to believe this can't be done with dogs either? Or that it can create an excellent partnership between dog and handler?

To quote someone else (I hope he doesn't mind) - "when we say we can't, it usually means we don't know how".

Mr. Frawley,

First I'd like to say that I appreciate this forum. For a dog enthusiast like myself, it's the best thing to come along in a long time. Thank you for having it.

However I respectfully disagree with your statement that my dog training will suffer if I follow a non-food/toy reward system. I have utilized this philosophy in training my male gsd, now 16 months old, and he excels in all obedience, protection and agility exercises.

As for your request - "The person who told you this this is a total fool (please tell them I said this)". I'm not sure who you're speaking of but the person I was referring to is no fool and his dogs, at least the ones I saw, flat out perform. It sounds like you have an axe to grind with someone. In fact it sounds like a lot of people on this board have an axe to grind. I do not. I think you should relay your message to him directly rather than asking me to do so. If I've got a problem with someone I'll tell them myself; I won't ask you to do it for me.
And for what it's worth, I'm nobody's disciple or follower. I hold no allegiance to any particular trainer. My only allegiance in this regard is to the work and the quality of it.

I ask questions because I readily admit that I am no expert. I've trained two dogs, both mine. I have limited experience. What experience I do have has been very positive. I am eager to learn other philosophies. To borrow a saying, if I don't know your philosophy it's quite probable that I don't fully understand my own. So again, I ask questions. If anyone would like to respond and speak to the question as to why or why not they agree or disagree with food/toy reward system I would appreciate it. Curtisoms, thanks for your input, I think you provided some very interesting observations and remarks. And Mr. Frawley, thank you again for providing this forum.

Let me rephrase my comments. If a dog has prey drive or food drive and the trainer knows this but chooses not to use this drive in training then this trainer is either not very well educated or a GOD DAMN IDIOT !!!

Maybe that makes things a little clearer.

Maybe your instructor friend simply does not know how to train with drive (using a prey item or food)Then I understand that he falls int the first catagory of being un-educated.

But your statement that food or toys interfears with the bond of the dog leads me to believe that he indeed falls into the IDIOT catagory.

If you are lucky 1 dog out of 1,000 dogs will work for the sheer joy and pleasure of being praised by his owner. All other dogs need to either be trained through drive or through compulsion.

Training through drive is fun for the dog; training through compulsion is not fun for the dog. Training through drive lasts the entire life of the dog; training through compulsion kills the temperament of the dog over a period of several years.

Now, as far as who you are referring to that gave you this advice - I could care! There are enough people in this world that do not know how to properly train a dog without me running off to tell them how un-educated they are or what IDIOTS they are. Unfortunately I sometime over react when I hear such stupid advise being passed on to students. I need to develop a “give a shit attitude”. Then I don’t offend people.

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Mr. Frawley,

If dogs have proper genetics, don't they/shouldn't they love to work? Why is it assumed that if food or toys aren't being used that compulsion would be used? Isn't it possible that something may have been lost in our dogs so we need these props or has something been lost in us and the knowledge of how to communicate with them?

Catherine,

It is clear that you don't know anything or very very little about dog training. I suggest that you either invest in some of my training videos and learn something and/or just sit back and read this web board for awhile - or both. Your posts are wearing a little thin!!

This is my back yard and I say who can come in and play.

Catherine,
I really hate to disagree with you, but Monty Roberts is a fraud. He does not really use those methods away from people. I know of someone who visited his farm and saw the mustang Shy Boy and it was atrocious. He was being kept alone in a very small paddock filled with mud, and he had a big hedge up where he could not even see other horses. The hay that he had to eat was combined with the mud. There was absolutely NO shelter in the paddock. Even in the wild, there would have been shelter. His hooves were grown out and looked like the slippers in the Arabian Nights stories because the farrier could not get near him. Monty Roberts also uses a war bridle (a bridle that tightens down and pressures a horses head), only he calls it a Dually Halter -- after his horse Dually. He also uses baling wire under the horse's chin to put a bigger stop on the horse and a device called a "buck-stop" in which a rope is put along a horse's gumline, runs up between the ears, and runs along the neck to the saddle, so when he puts his head down to buck, his mouth is severly punished. His aunt also has a book out called "Horse Whispers and Lies". I used to believe in this guy too!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I generally do not use food reward, BUT I will use it in a special training case. I have a couple of dogs now that I have to use food in order to do their toenails. Otherwise, I would have no hands as they would tear them off while I am doing their feet. So ALL food and toy rewards are not bad.