At the club where I train, all dogs are training in personal protection. The decoy tends to act differently depending on the dog he is working with. Some of the younger and or less experienced dogs he tends to be their friend after bite sessions. I don't want to speak for him but it seems he wishes to reassure the dogs they are not fighting for their lives and this is abit of a game. He will also occassionally pet the high prey dogs after bite work also. The dogs who bite in fight drive he stays very neutral afterwards and never tries to pet them as he would probably get bit and a new fight would begin. Thoughts on the decoys roll?

As was probably seen in other postings, I do not train in sport, however, I think something I believe in should probably fit in here as well - stability in the dog.

Whether it be sport or serious work, the handler should be able to tell a dog "its ok" and the dog should accept that. I personally do not want a bite crazy dog that is not under control.

If there is no need or threat, or in the case of sporting, no command given, the dog should not bite. Therefore, I believe the decoy should not be in any danger of being bit. If that is the case, there is a problem in the dog or the handler.

In all bite work I have done, afterwards the agitator will shake the hand of the handler, with the dog at his side. Or walk over the dog or dogs that were agitated. Or both. Shows stability in the dogs being worked.

I am assuming we are talking about stable dogs here. My question pertains to the decoys relation to the dog after bite work. I personally do not want my dog to just accept handling from the decoy after bite work. I'm not talking about a bite crazed dog here. But I see no point in this all out acceptance of the person they just were asked to fight against. I don't believe PSD handlers allow the folks theier dogs just bit to handle and fondle them do they? I guess I should not speak for the PSD folks but it is my educated guess that they want their dogs on guard. I agree that through obedience, control needs to be maintained at all times.

I have seen 2 arguments made about the aggitator/dog relationship. One is as you describe, the aggitator should be neutral after working the dog.

The other is a 2 pronged approach in PPD. First, not everybody that starts as a friend remains so. The theroy is that the dog should accept anybody that you have told them too, but be prepared to work if necessary. To continue the thought, once the dog is outed it should accept the person if you command them to. In many circumstances the dog will guard and in effect be strongly going after someone (such as a salesman or friend comming to the door). The dogs see this type of confrontation the same as making a bite on the person. Once you call the dog out they should accept the person as if there was no confrontation. If the dog cannot make this type of acceptance then you will have to put the dog up whenever someone comes to visit. That would render the dog useless in instances of having company over. The over all idea is the dog should "turn on and off" immediatly on command or provocation.

I have trained both ways, and with some dogs differently with different aggitators. Introduction of this type of acceptance will vary with different dogs. Some dogs do it right away, some you need to wait until the very end of training. If at all.

It ends up being one of those training things people have strong views about and you won't change anybody's mind about what they are doing because they are happy with the results they get.

My guess with PSD is they are never going to accept an aggitator after a bite. They are used in a different situation. If the PSD has made a bite it was for a reason and the person they just bit will not turn into a "friend". A bad guy is a bad guy by definition, not just a mistaken visitor.

I agree that your PPD should be under your control at all times as in on or off as I see fit. I agree that your dog will accept his/her handler shaking the decoys hand after an agitation session if that's what the handler wishes to do. That is a decoy/handler relationship. I'm interested in the decoy /dog relationship, as in you, the handler, choose to shake the decoys hand at the end of a bite session. The decoy then wants to pet your dog or wants a friendly response from your dog. Do people want/wish/find desirable this type of relationship or do folks prefer a neutral as in ignore the dog relationship between decoy/dog.

I have seen it done both ways. Like I said it is one of those things that different people do different ways and you won't change their mind about it.

Thanks for your perspective. I don't wish to change anyones mind on what they feel is right for their training goals. Just would like to hear peoples opinions on what they personally do in this situation.

I'm new to protection dog training. If however you are training a personal protection dog then shouldnt its training as closely as possible mirror real life combat?

I cant think of any situation where a rapist, mugger, pedophile, home invader etc. is going to be patting mine or your dog after just being attacked by that same dog. Why then create that situation in training? As you train so will you fight, thats why so many so called martial artists get their heads caved in in a real fight, they say 'gee that never hapened in the dojo' I never got punched or kicked in the groin that hard in training at karate, aikido etc and down they go.

If a assailant is close enough to pat your dog hes close enough probabaly to touch you, thats too close. Surely it would be better to teach the dog that any movement towards him by a person who he has just fought is another assualt and to respond accordingly with a all out counter attack.

Like I said Im new to protection dogs so Im open to correction on this.

For a helper to pet a dog after a bite session is crazy. This only confuses a dog in later defense training. I asked Ed once in an email why is this so prevalent and his reaction was that he feels it is a way of a handler showing off and saying, “Look how friendly my dog really is”. A helper should always be neutral off field in sport work. He neither agitates nor praises.

I don't think it is a matter of a handler showing off, I think it is a matter of control over your dog at all times. when I want my dog to bite I want him to bite when I tell him to. I want the helper to be able to approach my dog without the dog biting him unless I tell him to. The bottom line is I tell my dogs who and when they can bite. I am in control at all times, not the dog. It is like a boxing match. Two guys beat the shit out of each other for twelve rounds when it is over they shake hands and go on their way.