Question 1: I just started training my pup to do the send away (yesterday actually) and I'm wondering: what do you guys use as a cue to your dogs that you're about to ask for a send away? I'm looking for something subtle that would be acceptable (or go unnoticed) in trial

I realize that some schutzhund people simply pattern-train their dogs, but I'm not interested in that. I want my dog to understand and know the exercise, not to memorize a choreography ;-)

Question 2: Also, at what point in training the exercise should I start including the heel before the "voraus" command?

For now I just put my pup into a sit or down somewhere on the field (his stay is rock solid, even under heavy distraction) while I run over to the fence at the end of the field with the orbee ball in hand (visible to the dog).
When I get to the fence I wave the ball around a bit to create extra drive for it and plop it down right in front of the fence.
I then run back to my pup and give him a very enthusiastic "voraus" as I'm standing beside him and he charges down the field like a maniac to get his ball.

I don't know if it matters as far as this training goes, but my pup is exactly 12 months old today (happy birthday Taro!)

Here is a link to an excelent article on the correct voraus & the mechanics in teaching it.
http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0010.htm
Way down the line, if you follow these instructions, and your dog really understands & is rock solid on your home field you can begin start doing the excercize in different places (safe, fenced just in case). If he is confused, go back to the basics on your home field.

This method is tried & true!

Forgot to add, I've never tried to train the voraus the way you are doing it. Your method might be great, I just do it a different way. I can tell you that breaking down the excercize as described in the article results in a dog that understands the voraus!

Susan, thanks so much for the link! You're right, it's an excellent article - I'm printing it out.

LOVE the details provided by the author.

Actually, my method so far is pretty much the same as hers. I place the target at the same spot each time and release my pup with the command.

I tried the dragging-the-dog-away-from-the-target method but it ended up being too much of a struggle. Taro's too big & strong (95 lbs. at 1 year) and too much of a prey-monster for me to drag very far when he's focused on his prey item.

As the author says, it's best to avoid fighting the dog too much on the send away, so I used the down or sit stay to avoid the conflict of fighting to drag him away. I also tethered him to a fence while I placed the ball to change things up a bit (that made him almost hectic with drive!).

It sounds like the author recommends dragging the dog away to build its drive for the reward?
Since my pup charges down the field as quickly as his legs can carry him to reach the target, I assume it's ok to skip the dragging step?
I hope so, otherwise I'll have to find a friend to help me accomplish the dragging

I'm really happy you posted the link though. I was confused as to how to proceed later on in training. The tips for getting a good heel before the voraus sound great! And how to include the down is very well explained too.
I had no idea how to integrate that before reading that article.
Can't wait to try out those techniques when my pup's ready - the author's right, training the send away is EXCITING!

Just outta curiousity, does your dog know a "place" command?

No, he doesn't.

Do you integrate the place command into your send away training?
I'd love to hear your method, Steven. I've been reading up on training the voraus and chose a technique that I think will work best on my pup.

This exercise is a new one for me, so I'd definitely appreciate any input from all you more experienced trainers. Better be told right now if I'm messing up rather than find out a month from now after my dog has learned the exercise incorrectly!

I don't have a send-away yet, but I do have a "place". The send-away would seem to be simply a logical extension of it.

In my mind's eye, I picture gradually extending my "place" until he takes for granted that it'll be outta sight and directly in front of us. The obedience mid-way would just be occasional happenstance.

Not that I've done it, but...hey...maybe I'll start tomorrow and report back.

Edit: Now I know why this method in question seems kinda awkward. I'm thinking back to watching certain people train the jumps in FR. It involved people placing food (or toy) on the spot they ultimately wanted the dog to remain. It just didnt' seem to be clicking with the dogs; considering they had to un-learn the eating and/or dicking around looking for the treat, instead of sitting there ready to jump again. I'm not sure they had a solid "place" down....in addition to some other factors.

Mine did, however (toot, toot). The following week, I had my dog going from place to place over the jump, without ever having touched or coerced him.

The week or so after, he was stopping at the correct distance without the physical items he previously associated with stopping upon.

The principal seems the same: you want the dog understanding that going away from you is what gets the reward from you. Plus, and this is just my intuition speaking, I'd guess there'd be less conflict with mid-way obedience since he already understands that there is not (and never was) an immediate treat at the end the send-away, but rather a handy-dandy marker, and a treat from you. He never had any problem bolting back to get food or toy.

There was very little conflict in getting him to his place while still having the treat come directly from me. I just started small. Worked my way out in inches. I wasn't thinking in terms of a send-away at the time, but thinking back I've done it from as far as 30 paces. And that was very easy. I just had no use for a send-away at the time, so I didn't extend it any further, nor utilize what would have been his anticipation for the place, even the absence of the actual item onto which he woulda placed his feet.

All this from someone who's never actually done it.

So yeah, take it for what it's worth.

 Quote:

otherwise I'll have to find a friend to help me accomplish the dragging

Always looking for a training pal!

Steve, that's really intriguing - could you go try it out right now and let me know how it goes??

Doesn't FR include a send away too?

Seriously, if you do try out your method I'd love to hear how it goes. I guess my concern with teaching a place command with the reward coming from me is that I won't get the speed that I'm getting now.

Does your dog slow down or look back towards you as he's running down the field?

Or a better question would be, would MY dog would slow down and look back to me while he's running?

I think I'll stick with the method on the site that Sue linked to. The author does describe how to integrate the obedience without causing conflict.
Besides, since I've just started the training, I don't think it can hurt to teach my dog to love the exercise and to charge towards the target in a straight line.

I can always review my plan when I start introducing the obedience.

Of course all this talk of theory is very interesting and all, but I think I'll just try to keep an open mind for now and see how the training goes.
I just hope this wonderful theory produces results

Thanks for the ideas, I certainly hope to hear more!

I find myself enjoying this exercise as much as my dog. Hehe.