I am just getting involved in SAR with my 2 y/o Border Collie. My BC also does basic sheep herding chores with my small flock of sheep. Although most of Kipp's training right now is foundation work for SAR, I also train him on my sheep once or twice a week, for 5-10 min a time.

I've had a couple people tell me that they would be concerned that a BC trained for herding would be able to do a search if there was livestock in the area. Or that after doing herding any other type of reward is not enough for the dog.

While I understand their point, and the seriousness of the dog being focus on the reward to find the victim, I don't quiet agree that that has to be the case.

From my point of view, my dog is going to be trained to work sheep only with my permission. I expect to have a dog who can be loose (with supervision) on the farm, follow my directions and not always be slipping off to go harass the sheep. I take the dogs (I have an older BC as well) along to the barn, and they still have to wait for my OK before doing anything with sheep. They also have a solid recall - when I say we're done, we're done. And I find that stock work increases confidence in my dogs, and strengthens the working relationship between them and me.

As far as reward, yes, stockwork is a big reward. But I'm also activly working on building drive and focus with other rewards. When I got my dog 6 months ago, he had never really played before. He had a ho-hum attitude toward toy/ball rewards. And now I'm working on training send outs using the ball for a reward, we're up to 15-20 yards at home, and he's a very eager to work for his reward.

And most all of the training I do at home is done near one of the barns or fields where sheep are kept. I have friends and neighbors with livestock and land, so I'll have training locations available where I will be able to proof his training around a livestock distraction.

Does anyone have any thoughts/opinions on this?

From what I know, been told and researched, if dogs have been used for any type of work, herding, hunting or anything else to do with other animals, that they will be excluded from court.

I am not saying it cannot be done, but I am saying that I would not recommend it.

What happens when your dog breaks from trail and you find him herding sheep, cows or whatever when he is supposed to be working?

I would discuss it with your local groups and see what the general rule is as it may be different. Also research your laws regarding "SAR Dog" evidence and see what that says.

Interesting question!

It sounds like you have already done quite a bit of thinking about the challenges and how you might overcome them which is good. There is no doubt that hearding is "intrinsically" rewarding to a BC! Maybe you should not add much in the way of reward to that intrinsic hearding job, and save all your best rewards/praise for the SAR the job. It should be # 1 fun as you are already aware.

BC's are very smart and if you can make the association that hearding will be on your farm only, and never happen with other livestock, and you have lots of opportunity to train for those distractions, why not give it your best shot! At least if the SAR thing does not work out your dog has a job anyway

Your dog can either do the SAR work to your and your group's standard or not. He will either show great enthusiasm for searching or he will not. As long as you are willing to be honest about your dog's performance (that is hard!) why not go for it!? Who are the naysayers? Do they know working hearding dogs who have tried SAR and failed? Has your dog been evaluated already by your orginization as to its suitability/drive for SAR work? If this dog has ho hum drive for search work now, it may be a losing battle, but if the dog is into it-go for it!

Love to hear how this works out, and others opinions for you. I do know some BC's in SAR. The good ones always have great handlers (or at least make their handlers look great ) Love the intensity, drive and intelligence of a BC!

Cheers,

Jennifer

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From what I know, been told and researched, if dogs have been used for any type of work, herding, hunting or anything else to do with other animals, that they will be excluded from court.

Ah shucks, being from Canada, I often forget about the litigious side of things lol.

Are Sch dogs not allowed to do SAR work becasue they have been trained to do bitework? Or do we trust that Sch dogs can tell the difference between when they are doing dog sport and SAR work?

Cheers, Jennifer

Many teams will not accept a "bite" trained dog. Although I LOVE the PPD's and SCH dogs. I love to catch them, that is the funnest thing ever!! hee hee

I am not confident that a Sch would be able to tell the difference.
I think it would depend on the dog and the situation. If you had an unconcious victim, mmmmmaybe but a victim that flails at the dog out of fear or a child who runs, or someone who does not want to be found I would not be not too sure. This is why it is better left to the LE dogs and the SAR dogs should not have bite training.

Now, I do think that if you are strictly doing HRD search work and your dog is not dual purposed for anything else, then there is nothing wrong with having protection training on the dog.

For me the concern is less with a schutzhund trained dog than the fact that even with the best trained dog there is always the remote possiblity of some accident ......... no matter how small.

I think we would mostly agree that a properly trained sport dog would be safer than an improperly trained dog that has not done any bitework. But *most* people I know simply don't have time to do sport work AND SAR training anyway........so for them it is a moot point......

I *think* most people agree better to have a dog do one or two things well than a whole bunch of things.

A bite trained dog could accidentaly scratch someone and the press could have a field day. We all spend big bucks to carry liablity insurance too...not sure how that would play out.

Well said Nancy.

I think the big thing here as well as in a couple other threads right now, is that, dogs are dogs. All the training, work and dedication we put into them and they are still.....dogs.

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the honest opinions.

I've discussed it a little bit with the local SAR group, and they said it might be an issue, but not that it couldn't be done. I'll try to talk a little more in depth with a few of the team members this week when I go.

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What happens when your dog breaks from trail and you find him herding sheep, cows or whatever when he is supposed to be working?

The only animals that he is allowed to herd are sheep. And only under my dirrection. Any sort of herding on his own is classified as harassing the livestock by me, and he is corrected for it. We have chickens, cats and a horse, those are all big no-nos for any sort of herding/chasing. Most all of the people I know with working (herding) BCs are able to teach their dogs to leave the livestock alone, as long as they don't give the dog to much temptation (ie, leaving a dog outdoors and loose to find his own amusement). All the stock training at this point (and will ever consist of) consists of is learning to control his instincts, respond to my direction, and come off the stock when called.

I know each dog is different, but my 8 y/o BC is very keen on working sheep, but will also ignore the sheep and hunt for her toy in the pasture where the sheep are if that is the activity I'm doing with her. Kipp is not at that point yet, but he is excited to start working for his ball as soon as we walk out of the barn.

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BC's are very smart and if you can make the association that hearding will be on your farm only, and never happen with other livestock, and you have lots of opportunity to train for those distractions, why not give it your best shot!

That's kind of my thought. I've been to training several times now (required before brining your dog for evaluation), but his will be the first week that Kipp goes along. So we'll see how what they think. I know I'm in a unique situation. If turns out after a few months of training that it's just not going to work, the worst thing that will have happened is that I've learned alot about K9 SAR through training exercises with the team. And I'll be better prepared to start SAR training with another dog.

 Quote: mara jessup

If turns out after a few months of training that it's just not going to work, the worst thing that will have happened is that I've learned alot about K9 SAR through training exercises with the team. And I'll be better prepared to start SAR training with another dog.

That is the RIGHT attitude -- I think for every five people who think their "dog needs a job" and if the dog "does not work out if they try it" they will leave the team**, there is only one who says. "If it doesn't work out with this dog, I will have learned a lot and will get another dog and start again"

**not realizing that other folks now have invested their own time in THEM and expect them to stay and either get a new dog or do ground support.

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That is the RIGHT attitude -- I think for every five people who think their "dog needs a job" and if the dog "does not work out if they try it" they will leave the team**, there is only one who says. "If it doesn't work out with this dog, I will have learned a lot and will get another dog and start again"

**not realizing that other folks now have invested their own time in THEM and expect them to stay and either get a new dog or do ground support.

HE He he. I just had a flash back to my puppy assesment course. A surley older ex-RCMP giving the newbies a shake down telling us something like-

"We are going to evaluate your pups to see if they have the drive necassary for this work. They either have it or they don't. This can't be trained. We don't want 70%'ers. If they don't have it, don't cry. Re-home your dog and get another one."

You could hear our jaws drop, and then start to shake with fear

I think many who's dogs don't make it, don't come back with another dog because they underestimated the major committment (time, money, emotion...) that having a well trained SAR dog involves. IMO a SAR dog works best when it was purchased, and raised with that goal in mind-not as an afterthought-"oh my dog needs a job and SAR would be fun."

Of course I am sure we have all seen the opposite too-great dog, but handler does not belong in SAR

Cheers,

Jennifer