I recently bought a short length of radiator hose cut in two 10" lengths, to use for a variation of the "two ball" game set out by Sheila Booth in her book "Schutzhund Obedience Training in Drive."

I examined the material and felt satisfied that it looks durable and safe.

I was not able to determine what the material was, but evidently it is a type of rubber intended to transport hot liquid and steam, and is presumably relatively inert.

Has any risk been associated with the use of rubber, and in particular radiator hose, as a dog toy?

As a precaution I will wash the hose with boiling water before any play.

rgds, andrew may

I know that the Kong was invented by a man who used something rubber from a car, probably one of the hoses. So, as long as it's clean and play is supervised I'd guess there wouldn't be a problem.

i don't know about a radiator hose in particular, but my guys are quite fond of playing tug with my old worn out mountain bike tires!

i have not had any problems thus far, and they really seem to enjoy chewing on them!



http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2031108597

take a look at the posted link if you want a glimpse of my 3 boys being goofy! :wink:

Andrew: if your goal is schutzhund for your dog, it's best not to play the 2-ball game.

It turns on the dog's nerves and will promote chewing/mouthing on the prey item.

I know that wasn't your question, just thought I'd mention it anyway

 Quote: Yuko Blum

... if your goal is schutzhund for your dog, it's best not to play the 2-ball game.

It turns on the dog's nerves and will promote chewing/mouthing on the prey item....

What???!!! Have I been led astray? Who said that? When? Where? Let me at 'em!

Seriously.... Yuko, I haven't read or heard that anywhere, although my exposure to sources isn't all that broad. Where did you find that, or is it your own observation?

Thanks,

Anita

I'm sure you know this but radiator fluid is highly poisonous to dogs and cats.

I would not take a chance with a "used" hose.

http://www.2ndchance.info/antifreeze.htm

I can't imagine that a new hose is much cheaper than a Kong or two.

The talk Ed gives against "two ball" is either in the Puppy DVD or the Basic Dog Obedience DVD. I think its a nerves problem and you also teach the dog to drop the prey. You want them to hold the prey until you train the "OUT" command. But I'm a total noob, so I'm sure someone else can confirm.

 Quote: anitagard

 Quote: yuko blum

... if your goal is schutzhund for your dog, it's best not to play the 2-ball game.

It turns on the dog's nerves and will promote chewing/mouthing on the prey item....

What???!!! Have I been led astray? Who said that? When? Where? Let me at 'em!

Seriously.... Yuko, I haven't read or heard that anywhere, although my exposure to sources isn't all that broad. Where did you find that, or is it your own observation?

Yikes -- I am interested in your thoughts too Yuko. I haven't seen Flinks refer to a 2-ball game in his videos, but the 2-ball (or 2-hose) game is used in Sheila Booth's Shutzhund Obedience book. I almost always use "the game" at the end of an obedience session. My dog does like to mouth, but I have seen it used successfully without promoting mouthing.

Ed's DVD "Preparing your dog for the helper with Bernhard Flinks" is where I heard that.

Ed also mentions it on his website somewhere (sorry I can't be more specific, but he has a lot of pages, it's hard to keep track sometimes )

Ed explains on that DVD why it's a bad idea and even demonstrates this by showing a handler working a nice dog who starts getting chewy because of this game. Even a dog that's given great training and that has clear nerves can succumb to having its nerves turned on by this game.
(Maybe if your dog is exceptionally clear nerved and you give it exceptional grip training this won't be an issue, but why risk it?)

Bernhard doesn't say anything specific about the 2-ball game on the DVD (that I can remember), but even he is careful to insist that the handler NOT just whip out the ball when rewarding the dog for bringing back the dumbell (on Ed's "Training the motivational retrieve with Bernhard Flinks".)
He clearly explains why you have to take the ball out SLOWLY and with TENSION after taking the dumbell from the dog. Otherwise the dog's nerves get turned on and he either spits out the dumbell on his own after reaching the handler, or gets chewy and mouthy on it (anticipating the ball being whiped out).

Same principal. It's pretty obvious if you try out the game on your dog (I don't like to encourage automatic spitting out of the prey item anyway, so I never played this game with my schutzhund prospect dogs. I want them to be calm and hold the prey or dumbell calmly without getting all antsy and jumpy because they're anticipating the ball being tossed out quickly).

While I've never had the opportunity to see Flinks in person, I have watched him with great interest on Ed's excellent DVDs and I can certainly see why Flinks is considered the master of grip training.

I'd go with his advice any day (no offense intended to Ms. Sheila Booth - I just received her book and am very eager to read it!).

I hope this helps.

Maybe Ed can add in his comments if I explained it incorrectly - after all I'm still new to this as well


(Edit: 2-ball is a great game for pets, I don't want pet owners thinking this is bad. It's just not the best thing to do with a dog when you're concerned about developing a good calm grip.)

 Quote: keith larson

I'm sure you know this but radiator fluid is highly poisonous to dogs and cats.

I would not take a chance with a "used" hose.

http://www.2ndchance.info/antifreeze.htm

I can't imagine that a new hose is much cheaper than a Kong or two.

The talk Ed gives against "two ball" is either in the Puppy DVD or the Basic Dog Obedience DVD. I think its a nerves problem and you also teach the dog to drop the prey. You want them to hold the prey until you train the "OUT" command. But I'm a total noob, so I'm sure someone else can confirm.

*****

I paid $2.30 CAN for my 2 brand new 10 inch pieces.

My focus is on a zippy highly motivated recall, not Schutzhund.

Ed's quote from basic obedience, recall section, more or less: "If you aren't doing Schutzhund, there's nothing wrong with two ball."

However, Sheila Booth does advocate it with tubes in the Schutzhund context. I know others on this list with Schutzhund experience are reading Booth, and may wish to comment.

She prefers it to balls because it doesn't bounce. The stim is by the movement of the tube by the handler. It lands like a wet noodle.

I expect that this observation should guide the "two ball, or not two ball" debate to some extent!!!

The O.P. isn't training for SchH, but here's a thread that might interest those who are interested in the two-ball question:
http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/35048/page/8

Also,
http://www.google.com/custom?q=two+ball&sa=Search&cof=T%3A%23663300%3BLW%3A597%3BBIMG%3AMicrosoft+Theme&domains=www.leerburg.com&sitesearch=www.leerburg.com


Andrew, I have been looking for mention of any potential dangers with that kind of (new) material; so far, nothing.