Hi all:

I received a call from a trainer i was potentially interested in using to train our 9 month old rhodesian ridgeback male. He spoke about shaping the puppy. I'm unfamiliar with the term and the internet research i have done points to clicker training but i haven't found anything in detail.

We have already began training the dog from day one and introduced the prong at 6 months and the remote collar at 8 months. I use the remote only to reinforce the drop and leave it commands and the come command with/without long line. I have and use Ed's training videos. Just looking for some enlightenment regarding shaping. Thanks in advance.

 Quote: steve behnam

Hi all:

I received a call from a trainer i was potentially interested in using to train our 9 month old rhodesian ridgeback male. He spoke about shaping the puppy. I'm unfamiliar with the term and the internet research i have done points to clicker training but i haven't found anything in detail.

We have already began training the dog from day one and introduced the prong at 6 months and the remote collar at 8 months. I use the remote only to reinforce the drop and leave it commands and the come command with/without long line. I have and use Ed's training videos. Just looking for some enlightenment regarding shaping. Thanks in advance.

I believe he was referring to rewarding for each closer approximation of the desired position/behavior.

Clickers, of course, are simply another way of "marking."

Using a clicker or marker to "shape" or slowly change behavior. Free shaping means using a clicker or marker only and no other help to teach the dog to perform a behavior.

An example: I want the dog to retrieve. I get out clicker and treats and the dumbbell. (when I type "click," I mean click AND treat)

I drop the dumbbell on the ground.
First I click for the dog looking at it. Whe the dog is oproficient at this, I click for the dog sniffing it or touching it with its nose. Then I will click for the dog licking it or touching it with an open mouth.

Now the dog is giving attnetion to, approaching and mouthing the dumbell. So I up the criteria some more.

Picking up dumbell
Holding dumbell for a moment, then for a second, then for 2 seconds, for 5 seconds
Then carying the dumbell while walking forward 1 step, for 2 steps, for 2 steps towards me

So now I have free-shaped the dog giving attention to the dumbell, approaching it, picking it up, holding it, turning towards the handler and carrying it.

Does this make sense?

I recommend the book "Purely Positive Training" by Sheila Booth. I got my copy form Leerburg. The book has everything you could ever need to know about this sort of thing.

Thanks Connie. That's what I figured. I began marker training around 4 months old with simple things like sit, down, not eating every pair of shoes in the house...simple stuff. I combine this with the correction training as i don't believe in just 100% clicker/marker training.

i will say that training our GSD was much different than training our Rhodey.

Thanks Anne. I appreciate the info and will certainly look into strengthening my marker training and utilizing it more.

Hi Steve, I have a 2.5 year old male Ridgeback - they're very bright and VERY stubborn! (hounds...{shakes head}). Never met a more food driven dog, but when in high drive (ie prey drive) corrections were the only thing that got through to him. When NOT in drive, corrections tended to really upset him (in a sulky way), but then, he's one of the most emotional dogs on the planet .

Good luck with him - this is a great place to learn!

~Natalya

Hi Natalya:

completely agree with you. He is the hungriest dog I have ever seen and will ignore everything when he's locked on something. He is a hard dog and will recover very quickly from a very strong correction (only had to give once or twice).

With the Golden we had, our trainer used shaping. For the German Shepherd that we have now, we don't seem to need it. He gets it so quickly that it hasn't been necessary yet. Still, he's young and we haven't asked anything too complicated for him yet.

With the Goldie, it worked really well and it was fun to watch.

When talking about shaping I think you also have to talk about extinction bursts. Anne's discription of shaping was well done and probably has answered your question though I think understanding the how behind the magic of shaping is important also. Extinction bursts are the dogs natural curiosity for that particular toy/game at any one given moment in time. I would liken it unto a type of prey drive because it can wear out rather quickly depending on how naturally driven the dog is. Shaping also cuts out all vocalizations from the trainer which also can do a disservice to both trainer and dog. This presents some difficulties in training.
1. I believe that you are selling both yourself and your dog short by not using a good marker and reward based system with good vocal praise coming from the handler. Every dog I've ever trained can pickup on the inflection/tone change in my voice. Your voice is a very important tool in your toolbox for training.
Using the clicker and shaping short circuits that whole avenue.
2. Some would also argue that using extinction bursts is more stressful on the dog simply because the're not recieving instruction from the handler and it's all left up to the dog to figure it out which can be stressful. There was an experiment done with school children where they took down all the fences surrounding the school yard. The resulting effect was that the kids didn't run and play all over the place like they normally would. Instead they tended to gather together around the tables on the blacktop. Not all structure and instruction is bad. Not knowing is always more stressful then knowing the worst from my experience. In dog training, stress is the name of the game. When your dog reaches that level, it's time to put them away because they're through training for that session. This also brings in a tertiary problem.
3. Drive is built in a dog. Yes they have to have drive to build on but nonetheless it's built on. I never where out my dogs prey drive if I can help it during a training session. I picture it like a ladder. With each session I stop short of wearing out the drive so I can build an insatiable appetite for the game/toy. With each training session we go another step up on the level of drive (hopefully if done correctly). You can't get there with shaping. Nonetheless shaping does have it's merits and uses for the right dog and the right type of job.

Michael, I agree about voice. And voice can be used a bit in shaping. Just some quiet cues: a no-reward marker for excessive repetition of a behavior and an encouragement word or phrase are nice to use.

I use the clicker and silence to get my dog going on a task, and when she starts getting it, I start using "yes!" and eventually stop using the clicker. The excitment in my voice when she starts to "get it" gives my dog a lot of confidence.

I use a cue "Go figure it out" to let my dog know that we are starting shaping and to start offering behaviors.

Shaping can be used to create or build drive in a no - low drive dog. It takes an incredible amount of time and patience, but I was able to equal out food and prey drive with my dog. She can play tug now and I shaped a beautiful "strike." It took about a year.