This is just as a parenthesis within the general discussion, and goes back to many points raised previously. Here are some points that I would like to make, short and sweet:

1) Dogs trained in KNPV, Schutzhund, etc. can be and often have been cross-trained successfully to be police service dogs or SAR dogs. Sport training and service work are not mutually exclusive, and there are thousands and thousands of dogs out there that prove it;

2) As regards the retargeting/multiple-biting/bleed 'em dry methodology... In these times when breed-specific legislation is becoming all the rage, working dog enthusiasts who participate in responsible working-dog activities such as Schutzhund (where temperament is stressed above all else) are doing the MOST for the furtherance of the working breeds, not the least. A dog with sound enough nerves and a clear enough mind to participate in protection work and also have a ball in a playground full of little kids is the best possible commercial for the working breeds. Many of us own dogs like this, and I don't think we have anything to apologize for. I also don't think that "sport" dogs are contributing to the downfall of the working dog; there is just no basis in fact for that argument. I'm getting awfully tired of hearing about some century-old "concept dog" that could bite 'em repeatedly, bleed 'em dry, get the job done, be a REAL dog. Can we get out of FantasyLand now?

I just did. Going out to train my dog. See ya.

Pete Felknor

The difference between you and them is you actually train dogs they only preach how to.

Pete says--

1) Dogs trained in KNPV, Schutzhund, etc. can be and often have been cross-trained successfully to be police service dogs or SAR dogs.

Quotes from Ed Frawly's TTD article--

"If you are a canine handler whose dog is trained in FST you already know that your "tracking find ratio" on actual suspects is less than 5%."

"If you are a canine handler whose dog is trained in TTD you know that your overall find ratio on tracks is close to 50% and that if the suspect is loose in a rural area and stays rural your find ratio goes up over 90%."

"So while there is no question that TTD has a 58 year proven track record that produces 10 times the results that FST produces, TTD faces an uphill battle to become the accepted training style here in America. The main reason for this, is the police dog vendors that supply departments with handler training and dogs."


"The RCMP has not been able to take a Schutzhund titled dog and retrain it in TTD."

"The RCMP has also never tracking certified a KNPV trained dog at their school."

My point being that PSD's SHOULD be trained in TTD and therefore according to Mr. ED cannot be cross-trained.

Kevin--

Your points about tracking thru drive certainly go beyond my field of experience. I know that both the Dutch police and the RCMP have specialty tracking dogs, and I assume quite a few American police departments do too (if they've got the budget for it). It may well be that a specialty tracking dog should NOT be taught footstep tracking as it is practiced in Schutzhund.

My point in general referred to dual-purpose patrol dogs and drug dogs, quite a few of which attained Schutzhund titles before doing police work. Same for SAR dogs (including some mentioned at the WTC bombing site).

I usually like to stress, when mentioning Schutzhund and police service dogs in the same breath, that I am fully aware that ADDITIONAL TRAINING IS NECESSARY before the dog can be put on the street. That's not for you, Kevin--that's for anyone else who may make the mistake of thinking that I just said a Schutzhund dog (or a KNPV dog, for that matter) can go right to work as a PSD.

Pete Felknor

My understanding was that a dual purpose patrol dog was for drug detection, apprehension, and tracking suspects. With this in mind, and FST percentages, why would a department ever use FST?

"I usually like to stress, when mentioning Schutzhund and police service dogs in the same breath, that I am fully aware that ADDITIONAL TRAINING IS NECESSARY before the dog can be put on the street."

According to Frawley--

"The RCMP has not been able to take a Schutzhund titled dog and retrain it in TTD."

"The RCMP has also never tracking certified a KNPV trained dog at their school."

I would like to hear opinions of people who support FST.

I think it is important to note that many departments train in many different ways to track or trail. To group the approaches in either TTD or FST is really not describing what is done. The RCMP work is FST done fast with an emphasis on refinding the lost track when it comes right down to it.
FST when the work is done to bring the skill to the street is very much like what the RCMP does.
Tracking at a run can be a huge officer safety problem......therefore I do not teach the handler to run behind the dog. A stupid approach is to run behind a potentially armed suspect.
In addition, tracking evidence in most states in the U.S. relies on collaberating evidence as developed by the handler. This is difficult to do at a run.
S&R and hobby enthusiasts do what you will, but I caution those that are disseminating tracking information directed at LEO's to understand that tracking changes based on the totality of circumstances which law enforcement must address.

Pete,

I've seen some sport dogs that are incredibly hyper that some people confuse with being high drive. Do you think these dogs, even if titled, should be bred?

I have also read and heard people say that you can never have enough prey drive in a dog.

I think its breeding the extreme prey drive dogs that some people have objections to when it comes to breed integrity.

Rosep,

I agree there are breeds that the level of prey dirve has gotten out of hand in some breeds (Mals for one). It seems to work well for some Sport training. For a solid working/PPD I believe you need a more balanced dog. Personaly I prefer a dog that tends a little more towards defense/fight. The dogs were bred this way because they serve a purpose for the breeds and purchasers of this type of dog. To each his own I guess.

Kevin--
I agree an officer should never run behind a dog. I don't believe that should be done on SAR either. The dog should track (not FST) and should go at the pace that the handler sets (on lead, of course).