How many of you work your own dogs with a sleeve? Has there ever been any "side effects" to doing this? For how long can you work alone to teach bitework before needing a decoy?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You can certainly do this with puppies ie. imprinting and perhaps in the very beginning stages with a dog. But it depends somewhat on the attitude of the dog-- some refuse to bite hard with the owner on the sleeve-- But what could be more problematic is if the dog takes it seriously-- really thinks he's kicking your butt-- could create obedience problems down the road. Good question.

Here's a pretty simple rule of thumb (well, at least it sounds simple in principle).

You can take bites from your own dog as long as you keep the work entirely in prey. If you start working your dog defensively the dog will not fully trust you anymore. With some dogs, obviously, this can lead to disastrous consequences.

Here's the catch: Before even trying this (giving bites to your own dog) you need to have a very clear idea of your dog's defensive threshhold.

One of the more memorable moments in my limited career as a helper came while a very experienced decoy was instructing me in sleeve movements. My current dog, who has a low defensive threshhold, just happened to be nosing around the area and not paying much attention to us. Suddenly he noticed that I was waving a sleeve around and happily rushed in for a bite. "Keep your right hand down, whatever you do, and just slip the sleeve," the experienced guy told me. That was the first and last bite I ever took from my own dog.

Moral of the story: You're better off not even trying this unless you are highly skilled in agitation work and have a very good read on your dog.

Pete Felknor

How would you go about finding your dog's defensive threshhold?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My limited understanding of drives leads me to think that prey work is fine, since it's just a game at that point; not much different that play wrestling or tug of war.

I would never want to "push" my dog into a defensive stance, since that would put way to much conflict and stress on him. I'm supposed to be the benevolent alpha
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> , not a dictator-like brute. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

So, what are the signs to look for that say it's not a game anymore? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I mean, obviously if his hackles come up and begins growling, that's bad news. But what are the early signs?

That's what I meant by having a good read on your dog. Different dogs communicate the fact that they are changing primary drives differently.

I'm hoping that trainers who have done a lot more helper work than I have will pitch in here... but in addition to hackles being raised, you may see the dog's grip grow less confident or more mouthy; the dog may have a less "settled" look (not the relaxed, confident posture of a dog working in prey); the dog's body may stiffen; the set of the ears may change. Overall changes in the dog's demeanor are the first signal that the primary drive is shifting.

To find your dog's defensive threshhold, the best idea is just to watch other helpers work your dog. A dog that gets "angry" when the stick comes over his head has a fairly low defensive threshhold. Ditto the dog who starts in with the deep, serious defensive bark when the helper shifts his posture to a more forward stance. Dogs with a high defensive threshhold, on the other hand, must undergo a lot of overt pressure from the helper before they will switch over to defense. Some dogs seem incapable of working defensively at all.

Naturally you aren't going to want to try to bring defense out of your dog yourself--which you already know (your "dictator-like brute" comment).

Again, I would caution you strongly against doing sleeve work with your own dog. Tug-of-war is different; the prey item is not attached to you and there is a level of emotional remove for the dog.

Pete Felknor

Alright, so the basic idea would be to work your dog in prey at home and then defense at a group/club...!

That works for me. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Magnus

Almost. You should be working prey at the club as well. Prey work for drive building and bite development at home is fine, too as long as you're doing it right. Use Ed's video, *Bite Training for Puppies* for a pup or green dog.

If I trained dogs for sport I might have a different view of all of this. But since I only train biting dogs for real work, I don't ever want a dog to think it's OK to every put teeth onto the handler in a biting situation.

I don't care if it's only prey, rather than defense or fight.

I once saw a PSD handler taking a bite from his own dog. Afterwards I asked him what he'd have done if the dog hadn't outed??? He just grinned, nodded and walked away. I knew he'd never do that again.

There is another problem with going sleeve work with your own dog. If the dog has a good dominant streak, you are teaching him that it is ok to bite you. The other issue is that with a dog that has dominance issues I worry about teaching them to be more effective fighting people until those issues are worked out. When they get into that dominance confrontation with YOU they have been to how to win and expect to win. Tug games are one thing, sleeve work is another.