Hello all, my name is John I have been lurking here and like all the great info available here so I thought I would get some opinions on some training questions. I have a 10 month old GSD (Zeus) that I have had in obedience training (private not group) Zeus is a very dominant dog and we have practiced pack leadership with him from the start. He has some socialization problems and is very dog aggresive. Which is why we started with the trainer. The obedience is working with him and he's doing better. The problem we are having is with training collars, we started zeus out with a prong and was working with him on that since he was 6 months (he was over 60 pounds and was just neutered) When we started with the trainer he said that the dog was uncomfortable with the prong and we should use a choke chain, that the prong was to much and was holding him back. Well for the last month we have used the choke with limited results, he fights alot and we have to give him a extremely hard corrections (the trainer has us use both hands, use our body and completely turn the dog with it and while doing so,lift him off the ground (my back is bothering me and the dogs fur has shaved itself down from the collar) He also told me not to keep the collar high but lower on the neck, I've always read to keep it high. Now with this Zeus seems to not pick up the corrections well and is very rebellious (excessive barking at people, leash biting ect.) The trainer just says he's a tough dog and keep doing the training. Well me and my girlfriend talked and are very uncomfortable with the choke chain and it seems like we took steps back with the dog, as a experiment I tried the prong with our training (heel, sit, down ect.) and out on a couple walks. He's a different dog, very obedient responds to commands right away, smaller, quicker corrections to achieve better results then the hard choke chain corrections, easier socialization. We are worried we are hurting him with the hard choke corrections and what I believe is improper fit. I don't understand how the prong with smaller corrections is to much collar compared to the aggresive choke corrections. Sorry for the length of this but I respect what I have read here and would like some guidance whether the trainer is the right one for us Thanks, John

 Quote: john malufka

When we started with the trainer he said that the dog was uncomfortable with the prong and we should use a choke chain, that the prong was to much and was holding him back. Well for the last month we have used the choke with limited results, he fights alot and we have to give him a extremely hard corrections (the trainer has us use both hands, use our body and completely turn the dog with it and while doing so,lift him off the ground (my back is bothering me and the dogs fur has shaved itself down from the collar) He also told me not to keep the collar high but lower on the neck, I've always read to keep it high.

John,

I am not sure how to answer this other than, run from that trainer and find a new one and do lots of research here on Leerburg, Ed has TONS of excellently written, easy to follow, informative articles, podcasts and e-books available.....

Choke collars are dangerous to your dog if not used properly and I commend you for trying to keep the collar high on the neck, which is the correct way to use one.
Sounds like you may have found an "old yank and crank" trainer.....one that is going to get bit themselves or get you bit by your own dog.

I know you will get more in depth answers, but I thing the consensus will be to stop writing checks to the one you have now.

I will recommend the "Dealing with the Dominant Dog" DVD and "Becoming a Pack Leader" e-book as a place to start for you........

Thanks for the reply, yeah I get the sense that he is a old fashion trainer, learned from his father. I have done much research, read Ed's articles, read Ceasers book, the monks book, Dan Rice's book, go on germanshepherds.com forum. The collar issue goes againt everything I have read and when I metioned the dominant dog collar and how it worked he kinda blew it off and said this is better. I know nobody here is all that thrilled about choke chains, I'm sure they may have there place in the right hands but I think this is way to hard to correct my girlfriend and niece said it looks bad watching.

I can't find the video I am looking for. It may be part of a training DVD. Ed talks about a choke chain vs prong. The prong collar looks mean, but it will do less damage to the dog.

Do this (please note that you may get hurt):

Put the Choke Chain around your upper thigh and have someone give you a good correction. Or better yet, put it on the trainers leg.

Now repeat the process with the Prong Collar. You might want to use the other leg

You decide which one you want to use. The Choke Chain will focus all the "energy" into one spot near the place where the chain loops through itself. The prong collar will spread the "energy" across 50 or 60 points.

A prong collar is a much more useful tool, when used correctly. I am not an advocate of choke collars, although I do have a few hanging around in my kennels.

My Bloodhound does very well with one, but he is not one that needs a lot of correction, I use it because with a flat collar he pulls like a new Ford F450.....
A prong is a bit much for him, so I use the choker.


I think your in the right place and that you will definitely get some more input from other members.

It sounds to me like you have more sense than the "trainer". I agree with Carol, leave the "trainer", get Ed's DVDs, and train your dog yourself.
If you decide you need a trainer later interview the potential candidates and don't stay if your gut says NO.

John,
What Carol said.





If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Absolutely. Run don't walk away from this trainer. He doesn't even sound like a decent trainer of the old "yank and crank" type. I have never heard to place any training collar down low on the dog's neck. That makes absolutely no sense.

And don't feel badly about leaving this trainer. I've already left one that my dog was having private sessions with - it's really not as hard as it sounds . Just stop paying and stop going. If you've paid in advance, don't go back, just consider it an investment in what not to do in the future, a lesson learned and not to be repeated, one you can pass on to others.

Do get the Dominant/Aggressive Dog DVD. http://www.leerburg.com/301.htm

A lot of insight on this DVD and more importantly, how to deal with certain situations, such as the ones you mentioned.

Oh, and welcome to the forum! Got any pics of Zeus? We have a Members Bio section where you can post a couple, plus one 35kb pic in your signature.

Edited by Sandy Moore (09/27/2007 05:09 PM)
Edit reason: Welcome!

Thanks all for the replies, I'm done with this trainer and I will continue him on my own for the time being. Here's a pic of Zeus



http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/mopardodge/zeusyel.jpg