At what age do you people in the USA start your Pups on the Sleeve proper.
By this i mean with a Qualified Pakwerker. plus how long a time do you have the Dog on a Line working on the SLeeve before it is taken off the line, and the Dog gets a run at the Pakwerker and Sleeve
It will be interesting to see if there are any differeces between the USA general system to over here in Belgium

Hi Steve, I myself like to wait until the pup is older, well over a year old in fact closer to two. To me, if the genetics are there, then no reason to rush the training. I think waiting is good because a young dog is better equipped to handle the pressure.

I know many trainers who feel this way, but here in the states I think the majority trend is to start much younger than what I do.

The belgians have been putting out top dogs for a long time now. I am anxious for you to spill secrets to help the rest of us "pions"!

Hello Susan
I am suprised that a few more people was not interested in this post and giving there views
Over here in Belgium it may differ from place to place but in our main club we are lucky to have three or four very experinced Trainers, and they help the likes of myself bring our Pups along
This is how it is with our Pup 'Fred'when he was about nine and a half months old, they put him on a soft sleeve prior to this a old sack he got his teeth into in a bit of play, not on the arm of the Pakwerker but just holding it so he was on a line and they teased him and he took a bite on the sleeve and held on to it, then they let go of it and let the Pup carry it around
Three times they did this in a session, after about ten sessions of this they then had him on a line and the Pakwerker put the Proper Sleeve on his arm and the same was carried out. Three times per session. Up to now he is still on a Line to take the sleeve except for twice they have let him run and attack the Sleeve on the Pakweker, but the fellow was not moving at the time of the Bite
Next week they are going to introduce him to the Hide, But they will start from behind the Hide and just see how he will bark. But they will not allow him to take the sleeve first time
According to one who i was talking too he said it was a slow Job and they have to get it right from the beginning, otherwise it may do him no good, When he first goes on the Hide work an experinced Hasndler will control him very important i was told,
We are lucky, it does not cost me any money at all just 45 euros a year to join the Club
When a Pup is very Young like 4 month old Goran the Pak weker does not forget him. Yesterday after the Older Dogs was finished on Protection training they bought out a Sack and they teased Goran with it. of Course he grabbed it and they play with him for about five minutes when the Baby has the Sack in his mouth i run him back to the car with him still holding the sack
This also applies with Fred on the Sleeve once he has finished training he has to carry the Sleeve back to the car he must not let go of it until we reach the car which is over a 100m away, then i will tell him to LOS' and he will let go of the sleeve, well most times he does
I have a couple of Photos of him learning on the Sleeve but i do not know it it is permmited to put them on here, Sandy has helped me to put on Pup Goran but on the Bio Part of the site

In general I have seen pups go to the sleeve anywhere from 10-12 months.

Here is how the progression happens at our club...

1. Working with a helper using a burlap rag on a horse whip to get the pup barking in prey. The pup will get a few bites (and re-bites)on the rag, and then learn to carry the rag.

2. Once their mouth is large enough for the bite pillow and they are working well on a rag, then they get the bite pillow. Again, bites, re-bites, and barking in prey.

3. If the dog is showing good drive, barking in prey and carrying well AND the dog is large/strong enough to carry a sleeve, then they transition to a sleeve.

It is a slow, gradual process and there is no rush at all. The goal is to have a dog at 100% of the drive and behavior that we want to see prior to introducing a sleeve. My female pup made the transition at about 11 months, and I was pleasantly surpised in the middle of our protection session when my helper grabbed the sleeve. She hit it like a ton of bricks and proudly carried it back to my truck. She then held it by the truck for another 2 minutes because she couldn't fit it into her crate!

Steve,
You shouldn't be surprised at the lack of response.
Each dog is different. There is no set TIME TABLE. That's why a good helper is so important. They are in position to read the dog and direct you for the good of the dog. They are the mentors, if you will. The helpers depend on feed back from you about how the dog is progressing over all. You are after all is said and done, the person that spends the most time with the animal. The trainer. Get that thought rooted. You are the trainer. No body is going to do that for you. They are your helpers. That they can read dogs better than you is no excuse, they are there to help YOU. Ask them why an 8 month old is on the sleeve and another older dog, is not, They'll tell you, if they're good helpers. Thats what they do. Thats what they take pride in.
Give them the satisfaction.
Randy

The question depends on the dog and also who you are asking. Ring sprt people will say one thing and Schutzhund people will say another. It in my opinion is a slow progression like mentioned above. Thats just the way I know it and understand it. Ring sport people seem to know it and understand it a different way. Both people will end up with the results they want. The closes Ive come to ring sport type training is with police k-9s that were already bite trained so I was free to be as creative as I wanted or were green dogs purchased and already on the sleeve.
It really comes down to the dog and the helper combined. If your starting with a pup,progress slowly like stated in the post above. I keep the bites in prey drive though for a very long time until I think the dog is mentaly mature.

Thanks Guys,
Its about right then in line of what you say,
To me its a lttle frustrating waiting to see how he will bark or the lack of it when he gets to the Hide and they try him, But they tell me it is not a quick process, each phase will take its time Like when he is learning to go around the Hide Its a slow job and it depends on how quickly i suppose the Dog picks it up
There is over 100 years experince with these G.S Dogs in the Pakwerkers and they are the ones who help the likes of myself plus we have the help of the Belgium Schutzund Team Captain so overall we are lucky people, its a great sociable Club to be in
To get back to the part of the Competition when the Dog is Barking at the Pakwerker in the Hide, In the Last month i have watched about 35 Dogs in two Schutzund Competitions, and it is suprising how different the Dogs are in the Bark, Some are very good Consistent Bark, some not good , I suppose they lose Points if the Bark is not consistent, So i am interested to here how Fred goes on, I will keep you informed of how he goes when he gets the Chance
One thing is, that the Pakwerker always tells you after the Dogs have trained howw he thinks they got on trained and rthat is good, they take a lot of Pride in what they do
One thing to add, Fred is a strong Pup, But at Home he acts like a big Baby,I think he has a lot of growing up to do

I find that GSD's in particular are very slow to mature and don't bark much during bitework when they are young. Mals seem to be easier to get a bark from in a young dog because they never shut up as it is. A GSD just squeeks and whines trying to reach for the prey instead of barking to get it. Its a slow process, but I wouldn't expect much out of a GSD till they are 2 or so. Just focus on grip and technique, if the dog has it then he has it, it will come out eventually. Your pups are from strong lines, it'll come out eventually.

Steve, think of moving a pile of sand one grain at a time. That is a good analogy for this type of training. I have been working with my female for almost a year, and only now are we really starting to train exercises as opposed to building drive and teaching behaviors.

As far as young GSD's barking, in my opinion much of that has to do with the helper and his skill level. The helper I work with regularly jokes about how many people tell him "my dog doesn't bark". He gets ahold of them, and in 30 seconds they are barking their heads off. Good helper work is an art form, and to watch a skilled helper work is amazing.