Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere - I couldn't find it.

My wife and I are considering using a prong collar on Teagan for a variety of reasons (see my first post) and last night she came up with a very valid question....

There is medical evidence to prove that choke/check chains cause damage to dogs necks, as do e-collars when misused. Does anyone know of such medical studies conducted on the effect of prong collars?

We just want to have as much info at our fingertips before we decide (and may have to justify to others). Can anyone help, or point me in the right direction?

Many thanks
Rob

This is an old thread on the topic. The study has been referenced many times but I don't think anyone has actually seen it.

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=112&Number=51869&Searchpage=1&Main=5393&Words=convincing+&topic=0&Search=true#Post51869

Why would you have to "justify" to others? It is your dog and prong collars are legal in the US (unless you are in a country where they are not)

No matter what you do, a subset of dog trainers will still look blindly past the arguments and consider them to me medieval torture devices and recommend a head collar which has far more potential for damage.

Hi Rob.

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:

- 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
- The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
- Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
- Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.

from http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html

"In 1942, Hans Tossutti, one of America's first obedience trainers, wrote in his book Companion Dog Training: "Another piece of equipment against which I warn is the plain choke collar. In order to obtain results with a collar of this type, the guide must pull on the choke to the point of strangling the dog until he loses his breath. I have seen dogs with necks strained and seriously injured from being trained with choke collars simply because of the strength that can be exerted when the guide brings the dog up short with a quick, hard jerk. But never have I observed the dog with the tiniest red mark on his neck from wearing the ordinary training collar."

The "ordinary training collar" Tossutti writes about is the prong collar, an interlocking chain of blunt, metal prongs connected by a loop of small link chain. This collar, when tightened, evenly applies pressure around the dog's neck. Tossutti viewed the prong collar as "a well-thought-out, cruelty-preventing device which at the same time assists in systematic training," but felt that the choke collar, "though quite innocuous in appearance, is an instrument of torture in the hands of the beginner because of its unlimited choke."

from http://www.dogs-n-more.com/prong_collar/

hope this helps.

 Quote: nancy jocoy

This is an old thread on the topic. The study has been referenced many times but I don't think anyone has actually seen it.

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=112&Number=51869&Searchpage=1&Main=5393&Words=convincing+&topic=0&Search=true#Post51869

Why would you have to "justify" to others? It is your dog and prong collars are legal in the US (unless you are in a country where they are not)

No matter what you do, a subset of dog trainers will still look blindly past the arguments and consider them to me medieval torture devices and recommend a head collar which has far more potential for damage.

Thanks for the link Nancy. That's an excellent article and has some great site links too.

I was expecting the 'why justify?' question. Here in the UK almost everyone is trying to ban e-collars, and tagging the prong along with it. If some do-gooder complains to the RSPCA or Dog Warden or Police about 'cruelty', I'll be in a position of strength to justify why we're using a prong collar - then I can happily tell them to P*** Off, she's my dog!

Regards
Rob

Richard, you're a star!

Thank you.

Rob, Shalini and Teagan

Ahh, the UK thing. Makes sense. I thought they were already illegal over there. Sigh.

Hello Rob
When Our old Dog Charlie was a Youngster he was a real Strong pulling Dog and i used a Prong Collar on him for around 15 months.He gradually came around to my way of thinking without it and all was well. But i needed to use a collar like that at the time.
I lived in Shropshire then and i never had anyone tell me i was wrong or laid down the law to me.
Even if they had and because i am a gentleman, all they would have got from me was a Polite two finger salute
Steve

 Quote: Nancy Jocoy

Ahh, the UK thing. Makes sense. I thought they were already illegal over there. Sigh.

Not yet.... but I don't think it will be too long before e-collars are.

As for the UK thing - I know a police dog trainer who told me a story. They had a fantastic GSD who excelled at everything in training but was considered too dangerous because he wouldn't OUT when told. He really liked to bite!

They couldn't certify him because of it, and we all know what happens to dogs that are 'too dangerous'. The trainer took the dog, handler and himself over the the bottom of the training field 'out of sight'. Out came the prong collar - it took two OUTS with prong correction for the dog to get it. If the trainer had been found out, he'd have been kicked out of Dogs and possibly lost his job.

That dog went on to be one of the best performing dogs in the country, on duty and in competition, and never had a problem OUTing again. Yet, prong collars are still not allowed. Go figure.........

Rob

 Quote: Steve Patrick

Hello Rob
When Our old Dog Charlie was a Youngster he was a real Strong pulling Dog and i used a Prong Collar on him for around 15 months.He gradually came around to my way of thinking without it and all was well. But i needed to use a collar like that at the time.
I lived in Shropshire then and i never had anyone tell me i was wrong or laid down the law to me.
Even if they had and because i am a gentleman, all they would have got from me was a Polite two finger salute
Steve

Hi Steve,

Managed to escape England then! Thankfully many in the UK are ignorant as to what prong collars are, but I just know I'll come across the one.

I think the 'Agincourt Wave' may well be appropriate

Cheers
Rob

HiRob
I moved over to Belgium to Test myself against the Belguim ,Dutch and German Pigeon Fanciers at International Level Long Distance but i must not mention this here
We must also not mention the Battle of Agincourt back in 1415 Saint Crispins Day,
The French Citizens have never forgiven us for beating them