I got the "preparing your dog for the helper" video and have watched most of it. In one part Ed makes the above statement. Can someone please explain this to me because I just don't buy it. I feel like there would only be two reasons your dog isn't listening to your out command. Either he doesn't know what you asking (i.e. you haven't made him generalize etc.) or you haven't properly motivated him (either positively or using aversives).
Hmmmm...I admit I have not seen this video, but could he mean that the dog refuses to out b/c he does not respect the handler? (Assuming of course, that the dog understands the command). Kind of a "I'm not outing b/c I'm my own boss" kind of attitude?
Reg: 06-03-2007
Posts: 495
Loc: Englishman, living in Belgium
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Fred' was doing this Not Lossing when told, so what they did over here was to let him hold on to the Sleeve off the Pakwerkers arm and we the handler then run round with the Dog in a circle
The Pakwserker then caught hold of the Sleeve and the Dog again held on then it was let go, and we run around in a circle again with the sleeve still with the dog, three or four times this was done before the Word LOSS was said to the Dog,
after Six sessions of this which ended last Sunday he lossed first time asked, each time on that session he let go of the Sleeve first time
Last night he was again near perfect, He released on the first command each time he was asked to immediatly, only once did he move to get the Sleeve out of turn and was checked from doing so
Give it a try , nothing ventured nothing gained , it worked for Fred, it may work for you
Ed Frawley Administrator Reg: 07-11-2001
Posts: 2112
Loc:
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Benjamin - the OUT is 100% a pack leader issue.
Do you think for one minute that the leader of a wolf pack who comes over to a lower ranking member chewing on a hind quarter of a kill is not going to have the lower ranking member leave it?
Dont underestimate the power of pack structure.
The OUT by the handler taking a bone from a puppy is the EXACT SAME as the OUT in Schutzhund or the OUT of a K9 handler taking a bad guy away from his police K9 thats biting the suspect.
I don't buy it Ed. Can you show me a single study or published article that states this? And even if that was true and a "higher ranked" member approached a "lower ranked" growling etc. with the intent of taking the bone couldn't it be said that the wolf dropped it because he knows that if he doesn't the higher ranking wolf will respond with aggression (wild wolf packs tend to be a family, the alpha therefore would be the adult father wolf and the other wolves smaller, younger wolves)? Doesn't that mean that the adult wolf has taught a command (growl and snarl = out) and has reinforced it with either negative punishment (removing the stress and noise when younger wolf outs) or positive punishment (overt aggression)? How is pack structure then not just a byproduct of operant conditioning and not a drive or instinct?
Benjamin, you're making my head hurt. If you don't see it as a structural/respect issue, can't we just agree that it's an OB issue regardless of the arena?
...I just don't buy it. I feel like there would only be two reasons your dog isn't listening to your out command. Either he doesn't know what you asking (i.e. you haven't made him generalize etc.) or you haven't properly motivated him (either positively or using aversives).
LOL. In a perfect world full of perfect angel pets, this would be true. You're trying to say that a dog is never disobedient and disrespectful, and just plain want to do what he wants to do because of lack of respect for the boss/alpha/whatever? Ayayayay...can I send you a dog (or 6) to prove your theory wrong? I guarantee you that they know what the command means.
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Out as a pack issue?
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If you don't see it as a structural/respect issue, can't we just agree that it's an OB issue regardless of the arena?
Ayayayay...can I send you a dog (or 6) to prove your theory wrong? 
I guarantee you that they know what the command means.
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