well.

i wrote in general about the attack by the PSD-washouts over christmas.

i didn't coddle luc, i didn't even acknowledge it had happened, to be honest. acted like all was normal with respect to luc, though obviously i was upset, i let that out in human conversations, not with luc.

then, last week i was walking luc and another GSD owner was coming down the sidewalk. his dog freaked out at the last minute, but the owner was on top of him and nothing happened to luc though he was startled.

now a few days ago, we were in the park (luc is now on a leash in the park, but free to go where he wants) a strange dog came in - never seen it before, and luc danced forward (slightly to the side) - tail curled up, body forward, ears forward - and he hackled and growled at the dog!

luc hackled! it's so weird to think of HIM hackling at first i thought 'strange, i don't feel a wind' but then i realized, my big suck is hackling.

i gave him a quick 'leave it' and then distracted him by moving him away.

i'm assuming this is a fear-based thing, coming out of the attack. luc was unsure around dogs when i first got him but he never behaved like this.

luc can see other dogs that we see relatively regularly - including other large dogs - and not react at all. he reacted to the total stranger dog. luc has displayed what seemed to be territorial aggression in this park before, but towards people. i'm assuming what happened over christmas has fed into this and that it is fear-based, despite luc's confident body language (that or he's learning to be all 'this is MINE and you'd better know it' from teagan).

i was re-reading ed's article on dog aggression, and saw he recommends working obedience for fear aggressive dogs.

corrections worked for luc's territorial aggression - i only had to do a couple and he stopped.

what i'm wondering (and i did search, my apologies if i'm going over well-treaded ground) - i'm trying to get him focused on doing some obedience and other things before he has a chance to pull some attitude with a strange dog. but if he does pull attitude - is a correction with a 'no' or 'leave it' appropriate in this situation, given that i think it's coming from fear and luc is a relatively soft dog? i'm not sure if ed is recommending the obedience as a preventative only or as something to be used both as a preventative and to stop the unwanted behaviour when it does occur. for what it's worth, i'm currently walking luc on a martingale.

i got luc through his fear of strange dogs before, this doesn't seem extreme and i'm confident i can do it again and this won't be a long-term issue - like i said, he doesn't even react around dogs we see relatively regularly (we never interact with any of them, so they're sort of familiar strangers).

thanks!

Jennifer,

Have a similar issue with my 2 yr old GSD female. Let me first qualify this in that I am by no means an expert and have been looking for similar answers.

What I've found after taking a hard look at how I was reacting is when she had her hackles up in a situation like what you described, it was because I was startled or tensed up. She is unbelievably in tune with me and can read me better than I think I can. You may have acted startled which caused his reaction. Not sure if this was the case, but I know it has happened to me.

I have done the correction myself and when she looks away, praise and continued distraction. I have also done the obedience as a preventative, doing quick heels and turns to keep her really focused and distracted. Both seem to work in the situations. I've also fed her treats when she behaves correctly, and a correction when she doesn't...treats resume when she shows correct behavior.

Would love to hear other's thoughts since she throws up her hackles quite regularly. Still trying to figure out if it is fear, or dominance, but leaning more toward fear.

Dave

thanks david.

that's a good point, how much is what i'm sending down the leash. i think i tend to suspicion of strange dogs, i don't think more so than before but perhaps now luc is more responsive to my suspicion.
(if the dogs are under control, i'm not so suspicious, but i don't like them coming near my dogs, on or off-leash. i'm the neighbourhood's unfriendly dog owner, but i honestly just feel that we are our pack, and don't need to be hanging out with other strangers. i got a second dog so luc can have dog interaction (and with a normal dog who does 'dog' stuff), and there's no need to go outside the pack to do so IMO. heck, half the time i don't even like strangers talking to my dogs - but that's usually b/c they're all cutesy and want to pet and coo at them (well, luc at least....not always teagan. heh.) someone called luc a poochy pooch once! he may not be a tough dog, but he's still a german shepherd, and in my opinion, is deserving of a more dignified manner of address. but i'm off-topic.)

even with the familiar strange dogs, as a few of them are often off-leash, it's not uncommon for us to stay outside the park until i can see they've been leashed. i don't know if that sends the wrong messages to the dogs - i usually put them in a sit (teagan is working on her 'stand') while i look.

at the time, i can remember thinking 'oh good! luc's all confident and happy even with a strange dog!' and then thinking 'that maybe wasn't my best ever body language read' (it was just that he was confident and kind of dancing forward)
(edit for clarity: happy and confident with a strange dog around. i want my dogs to be able to be around other dogs (i.e. walk past them, etc) but i don't want them to socialize with them. wasn't sure if that sounded confusing.

he hasn't hackled since - it just startled me so much that i want to make sure i nip this in the bud, and am doing the right thing.

so....just to double check with people - can/should corrections be a part of dealing w/fear aggression?

i'm confused on this as i've heard everything from 'absolutely' to 'never ever ever ever'.

and while i do call luc my soft dog, he's never gone to pieces at a correction. he's always been like 'oh. okay.' and goes back to normal (stopping the behaviour). compared to my friend's dog who has sent 3 people to the hospital, luc is less soft (that dog can be scruffed at 5 years old, and thinks it's world is ending if corrected). i posted previously about my experience scruffing luc after him mouthing me and it was agreed that his reaction (escalation) was one of a 'dog of character' luc has become soft to the prong collar ever since i got teagan (and the herm springer collar), and he is submissive, to me and around other dogs, but i often don't credit his mental strength as much as i should. anyways, if that helps whether or not he should be given corrections (edit: on the assumption prevention didn't work or i missed it and he is showing aggression, not as a 'first line' thing).

Well not being able to see it myself I will just ad a few cents in here.

head up/ears forward/advancing with his hackles up sounds like defensive aggression/territorial behavior. Hackling is what a dog does to make himself look bigger and badder. Luc is likely reverting back to his territorial behavior out of insecurity, he isn't afraid necessarily or he would act more unsure, he would not advance with confident/dominant body language. Sounds like he is not as confident in your ability to protect him and his(your) territory from other dogs and is taking things into his own paws and try to intimidate the other dog.

Redirection is good, but correction is also appropriate as long as he is not showing fear. If he is hackling and backing up or slinking to the side or tucking his tail and butt underneath him and looking around, then redirect with something possitive unless he really starts showing aggression such as lunging and snarling.

Correction is ok as long as he is not showing fear, but redirection and OB is also good, you just have to judge by how he responds.

Like Jen, without seeing first hand how things went down so to speak, I'd say corrections in the scenario described would be okay, if and only if 'leave it' was ignored. He didn't blow you off, otherwise redirection wouldn't have worked.
Sounds like you handled it just fine Jennifer.
Holy cow! How many Jennifers do we have around here?
Glad to have you back Jennifer Marshal. Hope it was just the flu.
Luc might be coming into his own Jennifer Mullen. Remember no corrections before directions are given, fear driven or not, always give him the chance to obey.

Dogs are learning, you must be doing something right.
Randy

 Quote: Jennifer Marshal

... Sounds like he is not as confident in your ability to protect him and his(your) territory from other dogs and is taking things into his own paws and try to intimidate the other dog.

Any suggestions on how to correct this? Seems like the problem I have is that my GSD is acting more territorial. Usually correct and then redirect and it seems to work.

Thanks,
Dave

david - when i gained luc's confidence before, i handled everything - absolutely everything.

argh. one more thing to make me even madder at that man, but really, mad at myself for not doing a better job w/his dogs.

luc doesn't do it all the time. he did it last night, and both times he's done it when teagan is with us (i walk the dogs together once a day now, normally twice a day, but i made the change following some advice i got after the attack to walk the dogs solo more).

i still think it's probably fear-based - or well, territorial, b/c i get what you're saying jennifer - he's not showing huge fear signs, i'm just thinking of where i think it comes from, but - he doesn't always do it, nor did he start doing it immediately after the attack at the cabin.

we don't normally see other dogs at night, one reason why i was walking both of them, but we did last night - we were in the park, and this woman walked up w/her dog (i think it's a GSD/Rott/something else X). we've seen them before, and i think she normally wishes we weren't there, and i normally wish she was elsewhere. she stopped on the sidewalk, stared at us, then said 'where are you going?' - i said we were staying in the park, so she said she'd go on the sidewalk, moved forward a bit, then stopped again. her dog was staring intently at us. eventually she started walking again, and i worked on getting the dogs to concentrate on me. i felt the need to explain why i walk around in circles in the park, so i explained teagan has hip dysplasia and it can take awhile for her to go. though, there was no way she was going with that dog around, she went into a well-behaved dominant mode b/c that dog was being very forward in it's body language.

luc moved forward on one of our go-rounds - same kind of body language - and low barked at the dog. i immediately put him into a sit - this happened twice. on all parts of our circuit where we couldn't see the dog he relaxed. as they were leaving, he did hackle but did not bark or growl (having got that he wasn't supposed to do that). putting him into the sit and then making him heel after (he's normally 'free' in the park) worked to distract him.

i wouldn't say his particularly worried about the other dog. he does relax when it's out of his site, whereas teagan remains alert until the dog leaves the area. i know she's operating on different motivations than him, but i would think if he was having huge fear issues he'd remain highly alert and on edge until the dog was gone, and that he'd be looking around to check on it, which he doesn't do. ???

the woman said something that made me think - when i mentioned about teagan, a few minutes later she said 'that's why (her male dog) is so interested in your dogs! you have females!' (this is why luc needs to be wearing his manly collar ).

but it made me wonder - i know of neutered dogs that get along well with other dogs but that will fight with intact males. i've seen similar things with rabbits (who ended up starting to neuter the intact male one night, the vet had to finish the job....i hardly need say these rabbits were not under my care or supervision). so i don't want to entirely discount the instincts or inner workings of the mind of a neutered male. it made me wonder. b/c the strange dog luc hackled at was very interested in us, and it was a walk teagan was on.

of course though, teagan ranks higher than luc, so i'm not sure it's a two males and a female thing, or if that would even be likely.

but it also got me thinking - dogs that pay a lot of attention to us, luc has started reacting to. dogs that ignore us, which several of the regular dogs we don't know do, he's fine with. but i think maybe the attack has triggered something in his head like dog paying lots of attention=potentially bad, he hackles.

edit: and jennifer, i agree - i have to get his confidence back. he was very nervous for about half of our run last night b/c at the start heading over to the park a car drove up onto the sidewalk (it breaked so did not 'get' us - i think it was trying to make room for an oncoming car) - i think both of us were startled, but i felt bad, b/c luc is on the left and that made him closest to the car. i don't really know how i could have protected him there, as it was unexpected, but i wished he'd been on the other side so it would've been like i was covering him.

Jennifer M, just my opinion but I don't think it's fear based, perhaps caution with a degree of confidence. Luc may also be taking cues from Teagan, giving him more confidence since she doesn't back down.

What you don't want is that it turn into aggression, whether out of fear or confidence. I believe your "leave it" was the right thing to do.

actually, it is true luc has become far more confident when other dogs are around since i got teagan - something i've been delighted with, as i have hoped her confidence would communicate itself to luc and rub off a bit.

before, he'd be calm but stay close to me (his protector). teagan has always been willing to move out/forward with very confident body language, and i've seen luc look over at her, and then move forward a bit with his body leaning forward and ears forward. i've also seen her standing and staring at another dog (she intimidated it out into the road) and luc, standing next to her, about half a foot back, mimicing her body language. though, he doesn't have the attitude she does - it just radiates off of her - but he has been changing to be a bit more forward with other dogs.

this just seems a big step, but - maybe it is part of the progression.

mind you, he has been vocalizing, and i've only heard teagan vocalize once - a low growl - it's like with her she's too confident to need to bother warning off the other dogs (that's probably me being anthropomorphic or something, but it's how it comes across to me). luc isn't as confident as her, so maybe that's why he does vocalize.

hmmm. interesting. this is good, i'm realizing i just assumed it was fear-based b/c of what happened christmas eve. which is funny, i stopped going to another dog board b/c i got told constantly that luc was a fearful dog, and everything he did was fear-based, simply b/c he is a rescue dog and all rescues must have fear issues. which is not the case with him, and i found it quite irritating, but i'm being guilty of assuming fear here as well (for a different reason, but still).

as i said above, it is true i often don't credit luc's mental strength b/c he usually is the nice, quiet, submissive dog - but he has shown he can be mentally tougher than his everyday self when he wants to, however b/c he doesn't show that side as much i sometimes forget that it's there.