Well I took Macy on a walk WITH Noah for the first time in several months (my wife handled Noah, I handled Macy) and when Macy and I fell back, she pulled my arm out of its socket to get to Noah. I wanted to see what she'd do if I didn't let her, so I put her in a down and let them get farther and farther away. As they moved away she began to whine/cry and finally she broke her down and pulled (again, like the dickens).

When we caught up to them she just walked right past him to the front of the "pack" and resumed her normal walk behavior (light sniffing, lots of running around looking at things). She didn't pay him a great deal of attention, but when she was separated from him she cried and freaked out.

I'm trying to decide if this was a pack issue or a "Doggy" dog issue. She is, overall, a very submissive dog. If I crouch over her when she's laying down she rolls on her side very matter of factly. She's not a totally soft dog, she'll work through a correction if she's driven enough (and the flat collar pops I was giving her on this walk did NOTHING) but she's not dominant.

Thoughts?

Was she out ahead of you also? Or was she in a heel position after you got past your wife and Noah?

She was in "free walk" mode, ahead of me, beside me, around me, just generally being a puppy(jackass?). Because she came to us so timid, I've been very slowly working on walk etiquette. At first it was a chore just to get her off the step. Now she's ok on walks and we're starting to introduce the idea of being polite. She knows not to pull, though. She's never pulled, except when pulling to get to Noah.

Edit: That's a lie. She pulled when she first became comfortable on walks, but I was able to convey my displeasure and she doesn't do it now.

From a pack structure perspective, though they spend, at most, an hour together every week, I know she's dominant over him.

What happens if they spend no time together?

I apologize for questions only, but this one is kind of hard to answer without some details.

I would say she is a little of both, doggy and leader....but I could be wrong too....Jesea is the same way, and I look at her as wanting the "second in command" slot since she could care less about hanging out with other dogs.

Our dogs are pets and do some light competing or activities such as visiting nursing homes and schools. So this will probably vary from what those with true working dogs, or PPD dogs think.

Mine do ok away from eachother as long as they are with me and cant see the other dog.
when they are separated by a gate or door or walking distance they whine and cry and act like an idiot.
Since they do fine on their own when the other dogs arent in sight i dont worry too much about it.

They would all still rather have one on one time with either me or my husband than stay with the other dogs. And having eachother to hang out with or exercise and romp makes my job easier.

I see it less as an issue of being too doggy and more an issue of worrying that the other dog is getting to do something they aren't or that they might be missing out on something.

They look to eachother for doggy roughousing or sniffing out big game(moles and rats) and sleep in a big pile lots of times. But if i call one of them they will always eagerly stop what they are doing to work or play or cuddle with me or my husband.

They usually spend no time together. When separated out of sight they are fine, much like Jennifers dogs.

When Noah is first uncrated, and Macy is in her crate, she barks like crazy (aggressive barks, not whining barks).

If she can see him she wants to get to him (first, to establish dominance again, then, to play). If she cant' see him and he's in the house she's fine.

Generally, if I give them free time (which has happened once in the last two weeks, and that's a good average. It lasted about 20 minutes) she establishes dominance and they play. AFTER she's put him "in his place" she'll have fun chasing him, but will follow me if I leave (she totally ignores me if I call her).

If we're in the house she tends to hang around me over him, but if he gets out of sight she'll go see what he's doing.

I don't think I've ever thought about this so deliberately. Part of whats good about this forum is that it forces you to sort through the things you already know, so that you can provide people with information.

And Macy has a reliable recall normally?

If it were me and my dogs, the interaction, no matter how minimal, would stop. Especially if one of them blew me off to hang out with another dog.
I understand she is young and that there will be times that she will blow you off in training, but this should be worked on and fixed.
Noah is a big distraction it sounds like....have you worked with her around other distractions?

I hope this makes sense and that I am not too far off base.....

I just wanted to add that when I stopped and really thought technically about it..(which Im not sure I ever have either.)
the dogs that do the whining or acting like idiots are the ones who aren't with me. Being separated is fine with them as long as they are the one with me. They love my husband and sone but i am clearly the one they look to as leader and provider of all things good, which is what i want because I do the work with them.

Except for the pup who feels he must be within 2 feet of me at all times and I generally oblige because it builds bonds; If I am out of the room they are fine as long as Im not out of the room with another dog and they can see it. A shut door or a turn of the corner fixes the issue.

As for is being a dominance issue I think you might be on the right track.

Nico is the clear dominant among the three and when she is having her time with me they may whine some and then just stare pitifully but they dont go totally crazy. The other two are not settled yet but I do know that the pup will be dominant over Loki with time. When one of them is with me the other goes apedoody trying to get involved if they can see us.

I just dont have a problem with my dogs being friends as long as everything is peaceful and I am still the clear choice when the choice must be made.

They always 100% of the time choose me over other dogs, or other people when asked to do so. So they can play and wear themselves out to my hearts content lol.

David - it sounds like a dominance issue, to me. Definitely towards Noah and spilling over with you on the walk.

If I am understanding things correctly you let her sniff around and go run etc, on walks?

A dog that is submissive in the home can be dominant on the walk. I understand that she had a rough start and has shown fearful behavior etc but I guess I am confused as to why she has a lack of structure on the walk? It depends on the dog, but even the super fearful dogs are not allowed to pull or misbehave. Structure helps a nervous dog, too much freedom often confuses them and creates more nervous behavior.

Sorry if I misunderstood, but the fact that she is so focused on getting to that "wayward pack member of hers" means she is ignoring you. You are supposed to be the alpha, if it is ok with you that Noah be ahead, then Macy should have no say in the matter.

Carol: Yeah, she works under distraction. I haven't walked her with him, as mentioned, in months, and they rarely get interaction, but I'm certainly going to be essentially eliminating it.

Jenn M.:

We are totally urban, her freedom on walks is essentially the freedom within the range of the leash. She knows she isn't allowed to pull, and she isn't allowed to stop and slow me down. Generally she'll be a little ahead, a little beside, or a little behind me.

My problem has been that introducing her to the outside world has been arduous. With a dog that is so close to flight or shutting down on walks, the last thing I wanted to do was administer an accidental correction in a tense situation. The more I've worked on her exposure, the more she's become comfortable, the more comfortable I've become with walking her on a prong. I think the pack structure is more muddy on walks than it is in the house, but I stay on her with walks, I just don't correct her on a prong. She does run around, and she does sniff, but I see a big difference between socialization time (free walks) and work time (heeling work, obedience outdoors, etc). For her specifically, on free walks, I only expect that she mind me and not be too obnoxious.

With Noah, I pretty much expect a tight heel until we get to the park or wherever, where he can sniff around and be a goof.

It isn't because she had a rough start, but because she continues to display wariness and nervousness, that I encourage her to explore. We do practice OB on our walks, we do extended Sits and Downs and all kinds of tricks, at distinct spots. It's that line between exposing her to enough distraction and expecting her to listen, and overloading her then escalating her by correcting at a bad time. My primary goal is to improve her attitude and exposure to the outside world. The question of Dogginess came up because of that behavior. Pack structure certainly makes sense, though. And you're totally right, we can have a different structure on walks than in the house.

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You are supposed to be the alpha, if it is ok with you that Noah be ahead, then Macy should have no say in the matter.

I totally agree. Aside from a prong correction for pulling, what steps do you all think I can take on the walk to improve structure? I'll throw this out there: I respect Cesar Milan, I tivo his show every week, but I dont' think a dog HAS to be in a heel position all the time for me to be an alpha on a walk. Anyone disagree? Other ideas?