I'll start off by saying that I've been a longtime lurker and always read but never post. (My mom always told me you learn more by listening than talking)

A good friend of mine that I volunteer with for a Shepherd rescue feeds raw and is always on the lookout for good deals and sources of meat. She has come across a source and isn't sure about feeding it. She asked me and I have done a search here and haven't been able to come up with anything applicable to her specific question. I know that we do have a few raw gurus here (Connie ) and was hoping that I could get a few good points of view on her question. So, without further adieu, here is a copy of her e-mail to me:

"Since you are my personal wealth of knowledge (and I do not have the Leerburg BARF forum bookmarked) .... So, here is my dilemma. I know a slaughter who gets "downed" cows, slaughters them and sells them for cheap to Greyhound kennels (which feed that stuff raw) or to dog food companies (who cook kibble out of it). I have the opportunity to buy that meat (fresh) and for cheap from the guy. "Downed" cow means, the cow was hurt, paralyzed, cannot get up anymore. It may have been something simple as a broken leg, or ...who knows. Downed cows are not to be sold as people food. Would you feed that (fresh) meat to your dog? I heard that "downed" cows are stressed and that gets all kind of processes going, adrenaline, hormones and whatnot will be in the cow's meat then. What effect would that have on my dogs? Should I feed it???Help."

I'm hoping that based on the info she sent to me, I can get a good response or two to her question. Thanks all!

If the cow isnt down due to disease or some other nasty i wouldnt see the problem with it.

Maybe its just me but I would assume that cows sent to slaughter, especially those from large corporate type ranches are probably pretty stressed out too, thought maybe not to the same extent.

I think the problem is there really is no way to know what made the cow go down. It could be any number of reasons, including disease. And although we don't have proven cases, mad cow disease and other neurologocal diseases can cause a cow to "go down". Granted, I'm far from being an expert, but do live in an Ag community, and have slight knowledge (4H, FFA). Unless you really know what is wrong with the cow, I don't know....

On the other hand, dogs/canids have been eating the weak and sick from prey populations for mellenium, with no ill effects. They will find all types of animals that have expired from unknown maladies, and chomp away, seemingly without harm.

I'm probaly not helping much. For me it goes back to feeding the best we can. That is why we look for the natural kibbles, or the kibbles with human grade ingredients, or even feed RAW. If this meat isn't good enough for human consumption then, for me, it isn't good enough for my dog.

Just my opinion.

I'd rather they get 4-D meat than NO real meat, JMO, but that's far from wanting to feed it.

So far, we hear that mad cow (BSE: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy) does not affect dogs.

Nothing I have read has convinced me that we are sure of this.

No dogs, birds, horses, or reptiles have shown symptoms that researchers can identify as that animal's version of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy, like the people version, Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease.

But..... who says it would look the same?

It's against the law, a strict law, to use a known infected cow in any food, even for animals.

But some people (maybe a lot) believe that such infected cows do get into the 4-D chain, and if you're not convinced that prion diseases from cattle cannot cross to dogs, then feeding 4-D meat may seem too risky.

That's all JMO. As Shody points out very correctly and even-handedly, look at the big picture. Would the dog eat that dead cow if he found it? And probably be thrilled and unharmed? Well, yes.

P.S. I do not really understand the reasons for some scientists saying that the transmission from cattle to dogs doesn't happen, any more than I understand the disease's pathology.

Everything I posted is strictly the result of reading everything I can find and trying to understand very dry and technical and over-my-head info.

So while I won't give 4-D meat (or even unidentified by-products), that doesn't mean that I really have the knowledge to say that anyone else should follow along.

I am not an expert but if there is a chance that 4-D meat could be infected with the prions that cause BSE, you not only don't want to feed it to your dogs, but you don't want it in or near your house. Prions cannot be 'killed' as they are not alive, and their unique folding pattern protects them from being denatured chemically. So, basically, cooking or bleach will not destroy the disease causing properties. JMHO.

Not too long ago I had a conversation with someone who raises grass-fed animals.
She has Border Collies who get kibble most of the time. If she has an animal (goat, sheep, cow) die of an accident she drags the carcass into the dog pen and the dogs eat it. If she has an animal get sick and die the dogs will not eat it and she has to drag it back out of the pen. It has happened more than once so now she will not even offer the dead sick animals to the dogs.

Before I talked to her I assumed that canines would happily eat sick animals as well as they ate the healthy ones.

I feed my dogs some crippled/lame animals, but I will not put them in a position where they are forced to eat a sick animal.

I would suspect that an animal that was sick and died and then "aged" is more attractive to dogs than it might be if it were fresh. Perhaps the toxins break down?
BSE doesn't break down in any reasonable amount of time, and I would not knowingly feed that to my dogs or have it on my property.

And as far as stressed, I think a deer being chased down by a pack of wolves and partially consumed before it expires would be pretty stressed. I doubt the wolves mind if their meal was stressed. Anyone see the video of the single wolf feeding (for about 45 min) on the hindquarters of a live and active deer? Akkk!
I do my best not to stress any animals that I feed to my dogs.

 Quote: Debbie Bruce

Not too long ago I had a conversation with someone who raises grass-fed animals.
She has Border Collies who get kibble most of the time. If she has an animal (goat, sheep, cow) die of an accident she drags the carcass into the dog pen and the dogs eat it....

Heck yeah.

I would also feel TOTALLY differently about my OWN downed stock.

I just don't know how much I trust the outside source and the source's sources.... and so on ..... about the reason the animals they were offering were slaughtered (or died). Especially given the prevailing opinion that dogs aren't affected by BSE. (If someone believed that 100%, they might feel pretty OK about not REALLY knowing the source of 4-D meat, but saying they did ......)

I don't know. Maybe it's obsessive and there's no chance that BSE-meat is or even could be involved..... but there's my opinion, and that's all I have.

Maybe someone in that system will see this and give us info.

I have bought meat from a nearby slaughterhouse that came from what they called "split cows" He said they are cows whose legs have split apart and they were unable to get back up. Alot of meat for not so much money. I needed some more but read this link today and it got me wondering. So I went down to the place and as luck would have it they were out of the meat. The guy in our area that rescues greyhounds buys it in huge amounts and feeds it to his dogs. I got there too late to get any but I had made up my mind to talk to them about the meat itself and get as much info as possible before buying this time. The owner wasn't there and the kid didn't know anything about anything...so he gave me his number to call him, which I have but no one answered yet.

Anyhow, while I was there, there was a guy picking up his elk (which he was so sweet to share some with me) and he told me there was another guy in Casa Grande that sold this kind of meat but did it illegally. He said they are required to send the brains of the "downed" cows to be evaluated before they can sell the meat. Apparently, this guy was buying cow brains from Montanna or something and passing them on to the inspectors. He got caught and now is serving 2 years with a 2 million dollar fine. Interesting stuff what you can find out when you are willing to strike up conversations with people. Anyhow, I'll let you guys know what I find out when I get hold of the owner. Should be interesting...

You know I don't know all the technical stuff for 4-D meat and what that excatly means but I knew a butcher who went out and butchered perfectly healthy "downed" cows frequently and complained of perfectly good meat going to waste b/c any downed cow is not fit for human consumption by law. Of course that doesn't mean the cow isn't sick.
But on the other hand a cow doesn't necessarily need to be down to be sick,I knew a meat delivery fellow a few years ago who supplied meat to places like McDonalds. He told me that cancerous cows that could walk off the trailers were fine to go to the slaughterhouse to be processed for human consumption. They would cut out the cancerous areas out of the meat and then process the rest of it.
Maybe it won't hurt me, but I don't like the idea of eating something that had cancer. I don't think he was kidding either. Anyone else know about this?..I think I'd rather eat the "downed" cow with the broken leg!