I received an email that I thought I would share with the group to get various points of view. She explained that she bought a super bitch that was slowly going flat during protection. She went on to tell me that she was very shy and gave her commands very softly if at all knowing that the dog knew what to do. Recently her TD took the leash from her who has a heavy hand and strong voice when he sent her to the blind she did a super bark and hold to her surprise. I explained that the dog needed to see her as a leader and that the dog would in turn build confidence from this. I gave her the following example. One member of my club had a super dog that he was always afraid of reducing drive. So he let his dog be an A#@ during protection because he loved the drive. When my TD took the leash and put some serious power into the heel the dog did it's best courage test ever. She then asked me why then do people selection test their dogs away from their handlers? Does that mean my dog would fail? How would you respond?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Vince P.:
. . . why then do people selection test their dogs away from their handlers? Does that mean my dog would fail? How would you respond?

Dogs are highly sensitive to their owner/handlers -- they often pick up on their emotions or moods and behave accordingly. Command/control obedience training tends to make dogs more dependent on their handlers also. So, if one wants to get an idea of the "real", or the natural, dog as opposed to the "manufactured", or the trained, dog, then the dog should be tested in a way that its responses & behaviors are not likely to be influenced by the owner/trainer/handler. This does not mean that the dog will "fail" the tests. The dog may test better or worse depending on how dependent the dog has learned to become or on how much the dog's prior training has distorted its natural abilities. JMO.

Ellen:

Great thoughts. Pretty much what I responded but I know if one person asks a question many more have the same question but do not ask. So I thought it might spark some comments.

Here is my two pents.

I think I have an idea as to why this dog is not responding well to this lady. I am assuming that she bought a titled dog here? It has to do with how the dog was trained. The learned exercises in a protection are cued by set circumstances in training. One of these "cues" is how the dog was handled and the style of that handler. The dog could just be used (conditioned) to a more loud, excited, male?, set of commands and encouragment. Maybe this dog is just not getting its usual cues from the new handler. You said she was shy and quiet. I am guessing that she also is not very animated or inspiring to her dog, yet. Getting "juiced up" right there along with Fido makes a difference. Thus the bitch is not as sure in the exercises as she once was. This could also explain why the TD took the lead and got a good response. He had more umph! in his commands and that is more like what the dog was used (cued) to with the former trainer. Am I making any sense here?

There is a lot more to handling, and bonding, with a new dog than learning some commands. I have had some experience with some titled imports and it takes a long time to feel each other out and learn to work together. Dog AND handler.

(thanks for the encouragment vince)

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I have a concern somewhat related along this topic. I have a year old bitch from Czech working lines. She has an edge to her and her prey drive is not that of a top sport dog. At home, she shows good food drive and an interest in the tug when I tie her back and use the large tug on a line. She goes into drive, bites it, and has a good grip. I have just started to take her to the training club, and when she gets there, she is aloof, a little bit stressed, and shows no food drive or interest in the tug, which is very different from when I work her at home. I can't figure if this is a nerve issue, a lack of socialization/exposure, or the drive package that comes with this breeding that shows a natural suspicion toward strangers with more of a defensive drive and lower on the prey side. I am thinking that prior to the next time I take her to the club, I will cut back on her food quite a bit to stimulate her food drive, and keep her in her pen, so as to deprive her of stimulation. Normally, she has access to several acres alond with two other GSDs. I am very aware of how this can effect drive, but at the same time, I am working on teaching this dog that part of its job is to protect the territory. Any advice that might help to build drive would be appreciated

With the first dog, that was mentioned, I believe that the last post posted on that dog was pretty much on the money.
This is a problem with buying dogs that were pre-trained by someone else. Dogs are conditioned to thier handlers and thus making the dog respond to the handler and the way he/she trains. I know of a dog that was great with her previous handler in Germany, real scores not purchased, and the dog came into the States, the scores went right down, as did the dogs performance. The dog was trained on a long line and pinch, by a man, and they went to the electric, and a woman who screamed at the dog and was really clumsy. The grips were maintained using the long-line and pinch, in Germany,and after a short while the dog chewed and was falling of the sleeve. A guy who trained with the dogs first owner, that knew his system in training, took her and the dog for a week, and the lady got a V overall score with the bitch that following weekend.
The point is dogs are creatures of habit, and if you don't take the time to form a new habit, well the results are clear.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Omerhaus:
I have a year old bitch . . . At home, she shows good food drive and an interest in the tug when I tie her back and use the large tug on a line. She goes into drive, bites it, and has a good grip. I have just started to take her to the training club, and when she gets there, she is aloof, a little bit stressed, and shows no food drive or interest in the tug, which is very different from when I work her at home. I can't figure if this is a nerve issue, a lack of socialization/exposure, or the drive package that comes with this breeding . . . I am thinking that prior to the next time I take her to the club, I will cut back on her food quite a bit to stimulate her food drive, and keep her in her pen, so as to deprive her of stimulation.

Here are some suggestions you might want to think about before worrying about your dog's nerves, drives or socialization.

First, the dog is only a year old -- young for serious bite training IMO. Second, you judged her on her first trips to your schutzhund club.

The fact that she works well and shows good drives at home with you is encouraging -- a big plus. The thing to keep in mind about starting to bring a dog to a schutzhund club where it is exposed to the sights & sounds of the protection field for the first time -- it is a major new experience for the dog and at first can be stressful and intimidating. I don't know how your club is set up but some clubs have dogs tied out around the field while dogs are worked -- there is a lot of barking going on. The barking going on by dogs stimulated in defense/prey/protection work can be (is) very stressful to the new, inexperienced dog until the new dog learns what is going on -- until the dog gets used to the sights & sounds of the protection field and learns that they are not directed at it (non-threatening). This is one reason that some people expose their dogs gradually to the protection field -- they "hang out" at a "safe" distance where the dog can hear & see what's going on but not feel threatened. They continue to do this until the dog indicates an interest in participating -- the dog itself actually draws the handler toward the field to get a closer look and then the dog decides when it is ready to start barking & showing interest in "the game". If you wait and let the dog tell you when it is ready to participate, you don't have to worry about damaging any of the drives or nerve by trying to do too much too soon. All the barking, aggressive or otherwise, may be causing your dog to lose drive & show insecurity at the club field. She is young -- let her indicate when she is ready to start working. It'll happen -- she has already shown you that she has the drive at home.

Personally, I would not try to artificially "stimulate" her drives by withholding food or changing home routines -- it will only add to the dog's level of stress and insecurity at home as well as at your club. I would just go slow & build on her strengths which at the moment seem to be blossoming at home. Introduce her to these highy charged environments away from home easily at her own pace.

If the dog was fully mature -- 2-3 years old -- that's a diffent story. JMO.

In regards to the young bitch, this female is stressing from the sounds of it, but I do not think this is really anything to worry about much. Your bithc sounds a bit nervy, but I believe that she can come around. Build her prey drive up by working her at home on the pole with a tug on the rope, and ball on string. Alot of fustration isa in order. Alot of the dogs from the country where your animal is from are like this in temperment,;you just have to learn how to deal with them. Take her for walks in different places, playing with her, from time to time, and she should come around. Do not let everyone come over in crowds and pet her if this causes her to stress. Make it a slow working progress to reach that stage. Also when you do begin doing bite work, a ton of prey is in order for her, not defense. Good luck.

Ellen and Michael,
Thanks for your feedback. It was encouraging. I was disappointed with my dog's performance, but what you say makes sense. The dogs and pups at the club have the advantage of a lot of exposure from the very beginning that my dog hasn't had. Also, the club members compete on a national level and have top sport dogs with very high drive, and my dog's genetics are somewhat different. I'll continue with my basic plan and work on the exposure at the club and see what happens. Thanks again.

Overall, most Czech dogs are pretty good. US sport trainers just don't often seem them because all the wash out titled dogs, not imported for police work, are sold to them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />