busts down your door late one night. Does the dog go straight in and take the chance that he's going to get knocked into next year? Or should the dog have been taught to handle this situation a bit more carefully and circle and stalk the wary and ready man from just outside the man's range of the bat?

It seems to me the dog is no good to me if he runs in blindly and gets whacked across the head and is out of commission 3 seconds after the altercation began. However if the dog understands to bide his time and to look for the right opportunity to charge in, the bad guy has to proceed differently than if the dog was not there at all, which would give me more time to escape, call 911, attack, etc.

A trainer told me that he taught his dog to respect a man with a club by letting a decoy give his dog a couple of good whacks with a stick. The dog learned quickly. The trainer then attacked the decoy and upon doing so the dog joined in. I think I agree with the end but I'm not sure if I buy into the means. What are your thoughts?

I think it boils down to the dog as an individual, intensity, "drive", level of training as well as past associations and conditioning. I personally would like to see the dog "assess" the scenario but even with training etc. here is a guy making threatening gestures, retracting then forward again, I'm sure a dog never conditioned to the dangers of just rushing in, where there are so many variables to consider, may just go in. If struck will this send the dog running or make him more apprehensive with round two or will the dog engage even more, countering the attack? Interesting thoughts.

I have absolutely no experience in PSW but from what I hear the main difference in the bark and hold in PS from SchH is that the dog does not come in as close to the helper for this and other reasons.

The following is an excerpt from Ed's article titled Police Service Dogs The Bark and Hold

"The picture that is often presented by the Service Dog is that of a dog keeping his distance (6-8 feet) and with a broken but strong bark born of his fight drive."

What I have learned working dogs for service and schutzhund is the vast majority of dogs will fight when put into a life or death sitution. What diffrent animals will think is a life-threatining situation will differ from dog to dog. Most dogs even the one's that are trained for the police hold and bark will not be the ideal 6-8 feet, and I have not seen many dogs do this. Most dogs when someone comes through your front door at night will bark and if the dog is worth anything will engage in a fight. How much the animal will take will depend on how much training the dog has and how much the man wants to get into the house, and if the bad guy fights with a bat, chances are unless the dog gets a good first bite,and this is not unprobable, and most people are afraid of dogs, he will get injured and not be able to finish the fight.
If someone has a known threat against them of this type a dog is only part of a security program and should not be the sole source of providing security.

The B&H for service dogs works well here, I would also teach the grip for the offending hand, this is contradictory to sport work if you think about it. The very situation you discribe is the reason I have TWO sig-sauers. In the legal forum, an intruder with a bat consitutes lethal force when the dog is strictly non- lethal force. I for one, will not send my dog into a fight he probably won't win and step up the "force continuum" ladder. Any other LEOs jump in here. I say meet force with force and leave the dog out of it, looking at the big picture.

Yes I would agree with you except we are not talking here about working the streets, rather a person in thier home.

Patrick Murray wrote: A trainer told me that he taught his dog to respect a man with a club by letting a decoy give his dog a couple of good whacks with a stick.


Joe Noble: Aren't you supposed to let you dog get used to the whip slowly? I would think this practice of giving the dog "a couple good whacks" would make the dog very scared of the whip or in this case the club. I don't want to see my dog in avoidance, that is what this seems to program in the dog.

Mr. Taylor, whether on the street or within the confines of one's own abode, the level of force is the same with the only exception being this; civilians are held to a lower level of expectation regarding the EDUCATED application of force. As Mr. Murray lives in Florida, the handgun / firearm issue is not a probelm aside from personal choice. If the hypothetical resident lives in either a no handgun city or state or the Republic fo California, if would apply the force continuum as i described earlier. In the event, for some horrible reason I would not be permitted to adaquately arm myself I would have my dog do a B&H at a considerable distance and attack the offending hand, in essense, I would borrow some ring techniques and give them some real world application. Furthermore, I do not subscribe to the spray and pray method of self defense with a firearm.

I can't speak to the legalize of this topic however I would just say that if someone busts my door down in the middle of the night I will do everything possible to see that they don't leave alive. If that's cause to send me to prison then so be it.

With regard to whether or not the dog rushes in, I believe there are two differing philosophies. One is that the dog goes straight in and attempts to get in a good, hard bite, fight over, perhaps. Of course there is a real possibility that the dog will be knocked into the great beyond about 2 seconds into the altercation. And the other argument, like I said in my original post, is that the dog keep a safe distance and wait for his chance. The trainer I mentioned did have a decoy whack his dog with a stick. True, the dog didn't let that happen again. However, the trainer then engaged the decoy and upon doing so the dog joined his master in the attack, fight over. Had the dog been taken out the trainer would have been on his own. Now is this practical?

Not every scenario for one's PPD involves a home invasion. One could be at the local 7-11 filling up the gas tank when a thug trys to accost them using a club. A dog that understands what that club can do will be able to circle the thug and keep him from focusing on the handler.

How would you like to be in such a situation and your dog goes straight in just to be taken out with a hard blow to his head?

I'm not advocating this. I don't have enough practical experience to do so. I'm just thinking out loud here and looking for some feedback to see if this trainer I spoke to had the right or wrong idea.

All hostile encounters are actually a contest for TIME. Simply put, the dog buys us time. In the hypothetical situation above, I trust that we are not unrealistic enough to think the bad guy(s) will just stop at the door and allow the dog to engage as he sees fit.

This WILL be a dynamic situation, and if these people are serious enough to burst through a door into an occupied home with a ball bat, they will be pumped on adrenlin (and probably drugs, too). Typically, if this is a real home invasion, you will have been scoped out ahead of time and they will have a plan of some sort, crude though it may be. (Usually they will have guns, not bats, but that is not the case in our scenario here.) Momentum alone will carry them well beyond your threshold.

Any dog that will seriously engage is going to be on this guy like lightening...possibly before you realize what has happened...almost certainly so if you are in a different part of your home. Makes no difference if he is a bark & hold dog or not, he will bite on the moving target or he won't bite at all. (MY experience is the opposite from Michael's...most dogs will NOT fight in these circumstances unless they have been trained to do so and have the right constitution.)

If intruders are in your home, you are facing as serious a situation as you will ever face in life. The very existence of youself and your family is at stake here and you have only seconds to take effective action. Last I knew of, even the People's Republiks of Ma.,Ca., and Nj. recognized the right to use Deadly Force inside your home...where else can you retreat to?

Can you say "SHOTGUN"??? You DO have a plan, right? If you need a bite trained dog for personal security, then you surely have other options and plans in place too? A good dog IS going to engage, so don't let him risk his life for you in vain. Do what you must to ensure this person never comes after you or your family again!

Every LEO here can document case after case where serious street dogs have made serious bites on suspects who acted not in the least inconvienenced at the time. DO NOT make the foolish assumption that the relatively minor pain of a dog bite will actually prevent a doped-up, goal-driven assailant from carrying through his plans. (And no, grasshopper, guns don't "knock" people down when they are shot, either. "Stopping Power" is a 1979 Chevy Impala at 60 m.p.h.!)

There is, unfortunately, no shortage of people who will take your money and tell you what you want to hear. This is doubly true for dog brokers and trainers. Far too many people are selecting and "training" dogs for situations about which these "trainers" have little to no real knowledge or experience. Avoid these guys like the plague!

Let your dog do what he does best...alert you and buy you time...and use that time wisely to do what you have to do to stay alive and unharmed.