I'm confused
#178974 - 02/04/2008 12:55 PM |
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My family and I have decided to get a male GSD. By reading some of the posts I know people have strong feelings on the spay/neuter issue. Because I value the experts on this forum we decided to get a male because we didn't want to deal with a female's issues while in heat. We have tan carpets and we don't want to risk getting a spot of blood on the carpet. Or the hassle of the diaper going on and off for three weeks straight.
So these are my issues: If a male dog is not neutered is it more aggressive/dominate? The next question might sound silly but does it hump everything in sight? And does neutering really decrease aggression in a male dog or is that a myth?
This dog will simply be a beloved pet and not a working dog. We had a Siberian Husky for 13 years and she was never spayed and never had a litter. She was an outside dog. We are going to make this dog an inside dog because we have moved to a colder climate area. Our main concerned since we've never had a male dog is it being dominate. We are a family of responsible adults and young adults so there are no children involved. Thanks in advance for all the advice. You guys have open my eyes to a new way of training and it's been quite enjoyable learning from the members on this board.
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Re: I'm confused
[Re: Maisha Butler ]
#178993 - 02/04/2008 02:44 PM |
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You are definitely going to get an entire slew of information and opinions about this topic. The problem is, there is no concrete answer...medical professionals and training professionals cannot even agree on this one. Here's my 2 cents on it:
A dog and human's personality and ability to interact is an accumulation of their life experiences. That being said, a genetic predisposition for certain behaviors are going to come with every dog. In my experiences, neutering an animal does not have that profound of an effect on disposition. Some of the meanest, man-eating dogs I have ever seen are altered animals that I have encountered at work. Also, the spayed female lab that we have does bitework but if you come over to the house, she wants as many hugs as you can give her.
In addition, every single puppy in a litter is going to have a different disposition. What you have to do is recognize your dogs temperment and work with it accordingly; you socialize, build confidence, set boudaries, address undesirable behaviors (ie humping) and most importantly give the dog a job to keep its mind evolving (even if you don't do a sport).
I personally would alter a dog that I did not have for sport, it just saves you the trouble of dealing with wandering 'in season' dogs or your dog going wandering to find them. I do agree that it is more common for intact dogs to have a higher chance for inter-dog aggression but it is hard to say if that is due to hormones or a product of experience.
It is a personal choice, just take everyone's opinion into consideration and find out what choice will work best for you.
Here's the lab doing bitework for any who don't believe it:
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Re: I'm confused
[Re: Nicole Kelly ]
#178994 - 02/04/2008 02:54 PM |
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I personally would alter a dog that I did not have for sport, it just saves you the trouble of dealing with wandering 'in season' dogs or your dog going wandering to find them.
I have to disagree with physically altering ANY living creature to "save you the trouble" of various responsibilities. Having said that, so much has been said on this topic that even I am tired of reposting, lol. Google Leerburg+neutering, spaying, etc. if you are having trouble w/the search function here. Actually, there are even a few good threads right now, one of them being the mandatory spay neuter thread.
IMO, the fact that you had a 13yr old intact female and no puppies, and have no children tells me that you are a responsible adult capable of managing an animal's reproduction or lack thereof. Do your homework on health ramifications both ways, then do what you think is best for your dog, first, and your situation, second.
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Re: I'm confused
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#179004 - 02/04/2008 03:40 PM |
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Unlike Jenni, I am very pro-neuter and spay (but then, I work in rescue).
I read a study recently that showed that neutering a dog (at any age) has a high likelihood of reducing sex-related behaviours like mounting. It *may* reduce inter-dog aggression but has little measurable effect on human aggression.
Here is the study. http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/reprod/petpop/proscons.html
My personal stance (others on this board will have different opinions) is that any dog that will be solely a pet should be altered (after it is done growing). I work with unwanted pets every day and it is truly heartbreaking.
As Jenni suggested, there are MANY threads not only on Leerburg but on the Internet about the pros and cons of altering your pet. Just google "effects of neutering" to learn some of the health effects and behavioural effects - make sure the articles you read are studies with references, not just someone's opinion blog.
Oh and if I may give a plug for your local rescue. There are quite a few GSD rescues in your state (of course, if you get a rescue dog it will already be neutered). Here's one: http://www.savegsd.org/dogs_available.htm (scroll down for males).
Whatever you decide to do, good luck & have fun with your new boy!!!
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Re: I'm confused
[Re: Angela Burrell ]
#179006 - 02/04/2008 03:46 PM |
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I agree with doing your homework.
I work in rescue, too. It can color the POV, I know.
I think that Ed Frawley's overview is a balanced one, taking into account pet and working dogs, rescues, etc., and that it's one to look at in your decision process:
http://leerburg.com/neuter.htm
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Re: I'm confused
[Re: Angela Burrell ]
#179015 - 02/04/2008 04:27 PM |
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Unlike Jenni, I am very pro-neuter and spay (but then, I work in rescue). For the record, I have had I don't know how many foster dogs (I used to foster Pits straight out of animal control, before being put up for adoption through a rescue or shelter)...have volunteered at the humane society, and just this past year had an unwanted, unruly, nearly unadoptable dog sent to me from this very forum to avoid euthanasia...(oh, and being responsible owners, they had him neutered, of course.) So let's try not to infer that anyone opposed to across-the-board, knee-jerk altering of everything with fur must not be aware of the homeless animal epidemic, or must not rescue, or that anyone who neuters is responsible. There are exceptions on both sides! I am quite aware, and have repeatedly harped that people need to do their own research and homework and make their own decision based on facts, the health concerns of their particular dog, and their particular situation. Angela, I apologize if I mis-interpreted your first statement, but it sounded rather condescending ("but then, I work in rescue") and it also implied that I did not rescue, which is false. I simply don't feel the need to proclaim it. Oh, crap, now everyone knows, LOL. NO VACANCY! NO ROOM AT THE INN! NO MORE DOGS!
I read a study recently that showed that neutering a dog (at any age) has a high likelihood of reducing sex-related behaviours like mounting. It *may* reduce inter-dog aggression but has little measurable effect on human aggression. Keep in mind (OP) that not all mounting behaviors, probably not even most, are actually sex-related, but rank-related. Just something else to think about. The problem with assuming it's hormone-related is that then when the dog is neutered and it's no better, people actually TRAIN the dog, and then they wish they hadn't neutered it sometimes...it's a big decision, and there's no going back, so make sure you're totally committed to your decision either way.
The link Connie posted is a good one. Also, this is a current thread with different perspectives and good explanations of reasoning, IMO, started by someone in a similar situation (pet). http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=178947#Post178947
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Re: I'm confused
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#179025 - 02/04/2008 05:43 PM |
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Thanks for the all the information Jenni,
I tend to lean to not neutering/spaying the dog. We've had two female dogs and both were not spayed and never had a litter. So I'm not concerned with have any "accidents." My family and I have never had any experience with male dogs and didn't know if not neutering contributed to more aggression or not. From what I'm gathering in most cases it depends on the dog's temperament and not gender.
So Jenni,
In regards to the mounting situation that won't pose a problem if you establish pack leadership from the beginning?
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Re: I'm confused
[Re: Maisha Butler ]
#179026 - 02/04/2008 06:00 PM |
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I am not an expert in this area at all, as I have never had a dog mount anything it wasn't invited to mount . However, anecdotally, I will say I have at the moment 6 dogs, and currently 3 are intact males. Not one of them has EVER mounted me, a guest, a piece of furniture, another dog...NOTHING. Not to flatter myself unnecessarily, lol, but I do believe it has at least a little to do with a good foundation. Also, anecdotally, IME, the dogs I have known who did this in an excessive amount were all neutered males. But then again, their owners were also idiots, so either could've caused it! It is my opinion that a properly balanced, genetically and temperamentally sound dog will not have issues related to altering or not altering that a responsible person w/good common sense and a bit of work cannot overcome.
My advice would be to not neuter right away if you think you don't want to; you can always neuter. You can never un-neuter.
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Re: I'm confused
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#179028 - 02/04/2008 06:09 PM |
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I have a spayed female, who was very dominant; she would mount other dogs if allowed and was always pushing the limits. if I wasnt there when she was playing with another dog (Ive spied on her) she would mount them. Once, only once did she try to mount me and I educated the old fashioned way...she never tried it again. however, I knew that it was directly connected to other more subtle things related to rank and if she started to get her way, THEN you would notice she started to mount things.SO in my opinion it can be totally avoided by the correct training and be sure to MAINTAIN the discipline
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Re: I'm confused
[Re: Mary Velazquez ]
#179033 - 02/04/2008 06:41 PM |
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I agree that the concern for the animal should come first... the health and care of my animals comes first no matter what. What I have come to realize though in my experience of working in the veterinary sector and dog training is that decisions are mostly driven by what will be most convenient for the owner, sadly enough.
I also have never had mounting issues with my dogs. I believe it is within establishing a good foundation on a dog/puppy that you avoid a lot of behavior issues later. When issues do arise, address them.
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