Is it possible to teach an 8 week old puppy that is taking hard bites on a rag and pulling with all his might to counter or readjust to take a full bite or am I expecting too much of him at such an early stage in his life? If it is possible how would I go about teaching this?

Countering is a genetic trait. A helper will do many things to illicit a counter, i.e. slowing down the movement of the rag. But no helper work will create something that is not there. Bite training puupies has a section on this work

I have a question on this subject... it deals with Benhard's dive and focus method and Ed's counter teachings... I started with Ed's counter method and was very successfull with it, my pup will counter every time when I stop moving to win the sleeve. But now that I started the Flinks training, he counters the ball or tug thinking he will win this way becasue of the way he was taught to win before, this translates into "Chewing" on the item.

Of course now I am confused at the situation and am wondering what to do about it. Will this countering look like "chewing" to a judge? Both methods are very opisite in nature, Ed's = counter is good, Benhard's = solid grip with no chewing/counter is good.

Dave: How I started teaching the counter was I would draw the rag in closer and closer to my body.. sort of "reeling" him in until he countered, then emediatly let him win, I even had to just stand there still with the rag at my leg until he countered. Once he figures out that countering wins the rag, and pulling don't, he will do it every time. If he "can" counter like Vince says he will, if not, it's just not in him.

To add on of course after the fact, I would not focus on getting a counter to much at 8 weeks, you don't want to ruin the fun of the game by not letting him win unless he counters, just try once or twice per game and if he does it great, and if not let him win anyway.

You sound like you are confusing regripping with countering. This is a common mistake and could lead to a mouthy grip.

Richard:

Did you get the same reaction?

Thanks Vince,
My impression of countering is gaining a fuller bite by regripping the target.... both terms mean the same thing to me. Countering is regripping and regripping is a counter. Am I under the wrong impression? I will assume I am so can you tell me the diffrence?

Let me jot this down here... Mistakes 100 Lonny 1 hahahah <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes one form of a counter is a deeper, fuller and harder bite. Regripping is just an adjustment of the grip. Hopes that helps.

Hahaha sorry Vince, that still sounds the same to me, I think an adjustment of your grip would be so you can obtain a fuller deeper bite??

I think of it like this, if I'm eating a nice fat steak and my wife is trying to pull it out of my mouth, I will regrip the meat to get a fuller bite so she can't get it away from me.. countering the steak, she pulls hard, I counter that move with a regripped harder bite on that steak!

I know I must be dense... can you try to explain the diffrence to me again? Pleese!

Hmmmmm Mistakes 101 Lonny 1

This is my take on countering - it is definitely a learnable response for any dog. It can and should be taught to every sport dog, since lack of a full grip is a point killer. But countering should ONLY be asked for when the grip is not full, and then the pup/dog should only be rewarded with the win after he 1) deepens the grip and 2)holds without slipping as the helper gives one more strong tug. To reward the act of countering ALONE would build the association that Lonny is having problems with - the dog thinks the act of countering won the fight, so he starts offering that behavior more often and at inappropriate times. He should be rewarded for the act of holding without slipping when the helper challenges him one more time AFTER the act of deepening the grip. THEN he wins for holding firmly.
For Lonny - if your puppy is a natural puller and has a full grip, by all means reward and encourage that behavior. There is no surer way to guarantee that the grip will be hard and not shifting than to teach a sport dog to pull in order to win. When he's got all his weight and strength against the helper, the grip is rock hard and fixed in one place, because they can't chew when they are pulling. It is also very impressive in the escape and drives when the dog hunkers down against the helper and actually stops him, rather than just running along beside him (see Aufgeweckt Bruno in last year's WUSV tape). The other huge advantage to teaching a sport dog to pull in order to win is that if the dog gets into a situation that makes him nervous, he has a learned behavior which he believes will allow him to beat the helper and win, so he pulls even harder, making him look even stronger even if he may be on the edge of frayed nerves.

Sch3,
That is a very clear picture you have posted, thank you! But of course that brings up another issue with my pup and countering.. What's New? LOL I will try to paint the picture for you. We are working on escape's and prey building.

I stand still, pup starts barking at me, I make a break and he runs full and I make the catch, then he grips the sleeve "in whatever fashion I made the catch in" Usually a full bite, while I slowly run about 10 or 15 feet, then I turn and sweep my arm around his head to simulate an attack, he does not budge ever off his grip while we are in any kind of motion, then I freeze, he then will come into me and counter hard with a fuller bite because he usually squashes my hand inside the sleeve, I then slip the sleeve.

Sometimes I start to run again when he does this fuller bite then slip when I stop again.

Now that I think of it, I have made the mistake of accossiating this ending counter wich will turn into chewing if I don't let him win. He will keep biting harder until I slip the sleeve, but I don't feel it is nerves or expecting the out, he just wants to kick my ass and win.

I have just stood there and not let him win and what he does is he will bite for about 6 tries then out and start barking again to get me moving.

Now he has never been a big puller, but he does try sometimes... so what you are saying is I should start to accossiate the win with this pull and full grip?

Lonny - How old is this dog, and do you work with a club/helper? Need to know this to give specific answers, because I'm getting the impression that he's very young and you're trying to "jump start" his protection work, but I think you're probably going to create a lot of problems that you're going to spend months trying to fix later. Owners can do tons to increase their dogs' confidence, prey drive, etc, but I sure don't recommend actually trying to teach specific exercises by yourself.