while i'm blitzing you guys w/teagan questions....i did some searching, re-read ed's aggressive dogs article - but aren't sure on this.

i've discussed elsewhere teagan's aggression issues. she's very prey-aggressive, aggressive towards other dogs unless they are highly submissive to her (good w/luc, i think she has a fairly strong pack drive, also, luc has zero interest in challenging her), and has/is at times aggressive to me - she has been aggressive to strangers a few times, one time i would say she was provoked, the other, i don't know what triggered her. she is in general a pretty confident dog. she is fairly responsive to redirection w/respect to her territoriality.

when she and luc are playing, she growls a lot, but they are play growls, not serious - as luc's response is generally to wag his tail harder and groom her, i haven't worried about it. they generally play (it's sort of like mentally special wrestling) right in front/on top of me, and i don't see any sort of undue bullying or anything. i'm not really sure if it's significant that they tend to do this on top of me, but like i said, they both seem happy, so i've left it, sometimes i shove them away a bit.

sometimes teagan growls at me when we're playing w/toys - only her highest value toys (sometimes the kong ball, or any of her cuzes/cuz-line toys). we don't really play fetch - she'll get the toy, run around with it, then bring it back to me, and i take it out of her mouth, or, depending on the toy, we tug a bit. outside, we play with her cuzes, which are all dead (it takes her about 30 minutes to kill the squeaker, thank god). there, i go up to her and take the toy away, as she seems inclined to play keep away with it. she'll growl at me, but it generally seems to be an excited growl and there's no other aggression with it. the first time she bit me (scratches only) was when i picked a cuz off the floor near her - so i know they are really high value. but now, i'm not getting her serious growl, it's the play growl.

i usually do a time out after she does that - but she's not at all upset or even really aggressive. if i take the toy away, she pops up, looking for all the world like a happy dog who can't wait to chase her toy.

will play growling lead to serious growling? am i overreacting by doing time outs? i'm just trying to look at it in context of her overall - is it a slippery slope? am i underreacting, should i not allow cuz toys at all?

sorry if this is convuluted!

Considering the problem's you have been having lately, i would avoid tug for now with anything.

Secondly, you aren't leaving these toys out all the time right? I mean you only let her have one on your terms, correct?

I personally don't like the fact that she growls at you, even if it is possible it's just a play growl. It just doesn't sound right and what you may be thinking is a play growl isn't in her mind. Even if, after you take the toy, she seems all happy and fine. Just because the growling isn't ongoing doesn't mean she didn't growl in the first place because she was trying to show dominance and showing her dis-pleasure at you touching her toy. Does that make sense?

I would remove the high value items for now. As hard as it may be for you to not allow her to play with them, considering whats going on I wouldn't have anything around that is going to possibly make her ilicit a growl.

What is her body posture when she growls at you for taking her toy away? You say you think it's excitement but what is her body telling you? Is her tail low or high? What about her ears?

yeah....this is what i've been wondering, in context of everything else. if she didn't have the other issues, i don't think i'd worry the same way. ....i felt a little silly even posting it, but then i thought - what if it is totally harmless?

it almost never happens inside. it happened once, with her kong ball (thursday night), and i took the ball away, and she's never done it with that since. though saturday i got luc to actually put it in his mouth - toys make him very uncertain, he avoids them (i guess it's the shelter dog thing) - teagan didn't make a noise, but she stared at him, so he dropped it and skittered away, but then came right back.

in terms of access to toys - she gets one or two in her crate overnight (the only time she is crated; nightime is cat time!), and i usually leave out one when i'm gone, usually a ball, as she can throw it and drop it and play with it on her own. otherwise, i control all toys, i try to approach it that they are mine, and i am letting her play with them. maybe leaving a toy for her during the day is counterproductive to that? i've never left her a cuz.

it's mostly actually this weekend, with all the snow, i was playing a lot w/the dogs in the side yard (teagan on a long lead, of course). she does love the cuzes, which is why i use them, but there does seem to be a possessiveness issue. her ears are forward when she growls, she's always down on the ground, so her tail is out behind her, but on the ground. the growl just isn't as serious as some of her other growls are - though now that i think about it, sometimes she looks friendly, but she has kinda give me the eye a couple of times....eh, i knew this was a stupid question!!!! but she will pop back up, bright eyed and excited, doing the doggy grin, and jumping around.

you're right though, it's best just not to have the behaviour come up. one day, when she's a complete innocent angel, maybe it will be okay, but until then....

Jennifer, I would avoid the conflict of taking the toy right out of her mouth. You want her to voluntary drop it when you tell her to, so have you taught her the drop it command? If not, I'd get started on that, dropping the toy for a treat, and praising the drop it of course. (Good drop it!)

It's better that way - not only is it voluntary but you are giving her a command, which tells her what you want her to do, what she's supposed to do. It's clearer in the dog's mind that way, rather than to take it out of her mouth. That obviously has the potential to make the dog want to guard the object. So I'd avoid that altogether.

Commands are more straight-forward, and they keep you in charge in the dog's mind.

I'd also put her in a sit after she drops the item, so you can pick it up. Another command that puts you in charge.

You might want to start teaching the drop it with a lower value item than the Cuz toy, and a high value treat. Then graduate up to the Cuz.

Jennifer, I just read the post you were writing when I was writing mine above. Don't take away the Cuz from Teagan and give it to Luc. That's asking for trouble.

i agree.
i don't see a pack leader going up to another dog, and going "now, you give that stick to so-n-so", saying"you give it to ME", yes.

i did that for a while with my dogs, i thought i was doing the right thing, if maya stole a toy,i would make her give it back, etc.

It did NOT go over well.

once, recently i did something similar. Bart snatched half a ck back off the counter that was for the pup-i chased him down and took it out of his mouth-
i can't afford to have him steal food-plus-i didn't have anything else thawed out for the pup.

even that, just asking him to give up a chicken back to me, while he was alone, that was risky.

Bart is not allowed ANY toys when other dogs are around.
I have to clean up real well-he will try and find stuff to fight over , fuzz balls, a shoe, a book lying on the couch....

thanks sandy....i haven't taught her drop it yet. that actually would be a very useful command! sometimes i switch her for toys, but i haven't been using any command. i use toys training her as well, as the reward.

just to be clear - i didn't take away a toy from her and give it to luc - i took it out (i keep all the toys on top of the crate), was petting luc, and offered it to him, and he actually took it into his mouth. since he doesn't play with toys though, it would be weird to her (and him) for him to be in possession of a toy. but it came directly from me with no teagan in between.

mallory, i lost leave of my senses once and gave luc a cornish hen, to eat half, and then i was going to take the other half and give it to teagan....yeah....you can imagine how well that went. i think my brain had taken a vacation that evening....

sandy, what about tugging? we only do it with toys that make sense to tug with (like an actual tug), and it's part of the game....i often let her win - is this bad, given the situation? is it bad if i win it instead of having her drop it? am i overthinking here?

I don't think you're over-thinking the situation. Different dogs have different tendencies and need to be dealt with differently. Since Teagan is what she is (I think she's great!), and is a pet not a SchH or sport dog, I would limit letting her win the tug. That's how I would handle it. I think she's confident enough for a pet dog . Also, it's hard to NOT let a strong dog like her win the tug because once she gets it in her mouth, if she doesn't know the drop it command, you'd have to pull it out of her mouth (a feat in itself) and that would just amplify the problem (taking something out of her mouth while she's latched on).

I'd stop tug for a while, until she knows the drop it command. Later you can try tug again, have her drop it instead of win it. (Or use the word "out" if you prefer instead of "drop it").

Anytime she starts getting possessive of an article, I'd stop playing tug. Tug is a game of who wins, she doesn't need to constantly win.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

i often let her win - is this bad, given the situation? is it bad if i win it instead of having her drop it? am i overthinking here?

When you play a tug of war with a dog and let the dog win, the dog is supposed to do something right that please the handler. This game is to build confident and play fun game with the dog. It sounds like you are encouraging Teagen to grow more powerful by playing the game and letting her win many times for " what reason." I mean I only play tug of war when the dog did something right, like sit beside and doing heel, or whatever I asked it to do. Like Sandy suggested limit on how often you let her win and what is she doing that you asked her to do.


I would not put any toys in the crate to let her play either. The toys are gone and well-hidden. I would bring it out to play and then the game is over. The toy is going back in the box that is hiding in the closet. I would use the toy to reward a behavior that she did what you asked her to do. Teach her how to heel, sit for the toy, do what Flink B did in the video, etc.