I am a fairly new working dog handler. Especially with real working dogs like an driven Maligator. Though I've come a long way in the last 12 months trying to figure out what makes my Malinois tick. I've learnt a lot from other more experienced handlers online and in person while watching videos, attending various training classes and seminars. All along incorporating more and more positive techniques into my bitch's routines. (I was brought up on the "yank and crank" ideology ) That has been turned a full 180o now.

This past Christmas I was able to get a bunch of videos including Ed Frawley's E-Collar training for Pet owners purchased with a Dogtra 1700 E-collar from Leerburg.

All along we have been putting inductive techniques into my French Ring training with not a lot of compulsion. Just so you are aware my French Ring coach doesn't believe in E-Collars and his training methods are based more on inductive protocol rather than heavy handed compulsion methods. So the most experienced person I know can't really help me out with my e-collar.

She has been thriving with the inductive/positive methods especially when she is withheld reward concerning bite-work with the decoy. Mixed in with mild compulsion. i.e. leash pops with a fur saver and gentle leash guidance.

I'm realizing my dog while extremely over the top driven to work is a fairly, soft dog to physical correction, which is fairly typical with Female Malinois I understand. So my e-collar has been somewhat of a mystery tool to use with her. Especially now since I still am not getting a clear understanding on how or where to utilize it properly.

The reasoning behind the e-collar is I am physically disabled and I figured it was akin to a long line with out the long line as per numerous e-collar discussion sites. So I thought having an e-collar will not only give me options and or freedom of movement but more of the same for the dog as well.

As per Ed's video I tried to find a working Stim level for her. We got a reaction from her with our Dogtra 1700 on level 28 but at level 25 even on continuous stim there was no response. But at level 28 she would get really jumpy. The page to me seemed to get the best reaction from her. I have been using only page now with no stim for all things. It just seems that I am not utilizing my e-collar to its full potential in doing so though.

For example .. I'll say "sit" (no response) "no"... and stim her with a 'nick' on level 28 and repeat "sit". She gets antsy and almost goes into avoidance behaviour. From what I see the level is too high but anything lower I don't get a reaction!??! To me it still wasn't what I expected and confusing after reading all the positive talk surrounding e-collar use itself.

I know Ed's e-collar DVD should fill in that void that I am missing. But my guess I am missing something especially about setting the stim levels. The collar itself works fine with the test light. I also bought the longer 3/4" contact points and cinch it down tight so I'm 99% positive I am making good contact with the dog's skin. Things just are still not super clear about it's use still. Especially with reading how and why my dog reacts to it.

I'm not giving up I'd still hope to use the e-collar as a tool for certain things. i.e long recalls while hiking, digging holes in the garden or biting sheep during herding instruction. If any of you could pass some help on how best to utilize this tool, and how to read my dog during its use I'd really appreciate it.

Hey Geoff, with great results by just withholding reward, maybe an ecollar is just going to be something you dont need. It's just a piece of equipment to help reach a goal, so if you can reach that goal the other way why not stick with it? I really only used mine to stop some things so I know trainers will say I didnt use it to its full potential. But with the type of training you are doing and if it's working I think mine would be on the bottom of my training bag. ( I think thats where mine is)

 Quote: steve strom

Hey Geoff, with great results by just withholding reward, maybe an ecollar is just going to be something you dont need. It's just a piece of equipment to help reach a goal, so if you can reach that goal the other way why not stick with it? I really only used mine to stop some things so I know trainers will say I didnt use it to its full potential. But with the type of training you are doing and if it's working I think mine would be on the bottom of my training bag. ( I think thats where mine is)

I hear you Steve .. Just that's a pretty big investment to be at the bottom of the training bag.

I still think my problem is how to read my dog for setting stimulation levels. If I could get some hands on coaching I'm sure it would be easy as pie. Even if I do the withholding of reward with our French Ring training. There is still the living day to day with your working dog issues that I hope to be able to utilize this tool for.

LOL, yeah I know. When Roni see's this I'm sure she will be able to give you some good advice. Her way of using the collar sounds like exactly what you want. For me, just having it as a correction the way Ed show's accomplished what I wanted.

Yeah every dog is different, like I said in my OP in this thread. My bitch is very driven .. actually over the top driven to work, but yet soft with corrections. Utilizing a tool wrong like an e-collar, prong etc is a sure fire way to ruin a dog like mine. I just don't want to go there if I can help it. Say I am being to cautious but I'f rather be careful and tenative than screw it up.

Geoff,

When I first started using my Dogtra 1700 with Hans I saw the same thing you are seeing. He didn't associate the stim with a correction. It took awhile for him to link the two together. Like your dog, Hans wouldn't react until I got to a certain level, and then he tried to run away. With a little time and patience he finally figured out that the stim was coming from me and it was a correction. I kept the training sessions short, and I used one single command until he figured out that the stim was a correction.

Thats why I think Roni's way would probably help you. Look up her posts here and see where she talks about associating low level nicks with the command. I think it fits exactly what you want.

I am very interested in Roni's method also. I have always been able to get good results with my E-Collar use, but I'm always looking for a better way. I wish she would sell an instructional booklet or DVD.

I also agree with Rich's comment though. It is possible that the dog hasn't figured out yet. Initially I always prefer to be on the very light side until they do figure it out.

--Dan

At the risk of sounding redundant, the e-collar is a great tool. I have used mine in the same manner that Steve mentions, and Ed shows on his DVD, as an invisible lead for some behaviors.

I have been reading Ronnie’s posts with interest, but have not been able to grasp her technique with the amount of information she feels comfortable disclosing over the Internet.

What I have learned of though, was a trainer (can’t remember his name) who, from puppy hood, taught his pup to associate a very low level stim with praise and food. Much as some of us do with a clicker. As the pup grew that association transferred into a high drive state. So rather than blocking a behavior or drive, it is a drive-building praise. Ronnie, is this similar to what you train, or a whole ‘nuther method? What a diverse tool.

This took a commitment from a professional trainer to achieve these results. I could only wish that I had had the knowledge that this trainer or Ronnie are able to put into practice. For now I feel I have only scratched the surface. I am luck that I don’t have a sensitive dog that shuts down as a result of my mistakes. We have muddled through to achieve adequate results. Someday…

Geoff, based on my limited experience, she needs to still learn to associate the stim with a correction, if that is how you want to train. She just hasn’t picked that one up yet. But if she is able to work well the way you have been training, then perhaps you have an expensive bag decoration.

I hope to learn more on this...

I read into it the same as you Jessica, you were able to put it words better then I thought I could.