Hello
Our 4 year old Weimaraner, Riley, growled at our 1 year old son, so we instantly got on this site, purchased the "Establishing Pack Order" Dvd, a prong collar, a dominant dog collar, toys, and the no bark collar. We tried the social isolation for a week, and Riley was still resistant to being calm and submissive in the crate. Weve been using the no bark collar for 2 days with better results and hope to have him out of the crate and into the in home leash training potion of the pack order training this weekend.

Questions: Riley has always been an obsessive licker, guests, my husband and I, our son, etc. Is this a sign of dominance?

Also, can there be 2 pack leaders? Due to work schedules, both my husband and I have been doing the walking and feeding during the crate phase. Is this confusing for Riley?

He really is a sweet loving dog, we realized at the first growl that we had failed him in establishing a pack structure, so we are working to fix it.

I appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

Welcom to the board. Glad to see you here.

A few questions:

What was the interaction that made the dog growl at your son?
What is the reason for the prong collar? Is he disobedient with just a flat collar?

Could you give us a background on what his training has been like so far?

That will help for people to try and help you.

Great questions Carol! I would also like to say that in general "obsessive" type behaviors are not dominant because the dog is obessive about them, the type of behavior is what determines what the dog is after.

Obsessive licking... does he lick himself, you, your couch, your carpet? All of the above? What does he do when he licks, is he calm and methodical or is he manic and stressed about it?

For any obsessive behaviors I usually recommend some sort of energy outlet for the dog so he can unload that energy and stress in a normal, natural, way. A lot of obsessive behaviors, including tail chasing, licking, carpet chewing, etc occur because the dog needs an outlet for its energy. A lot of destructive or annoying behaviors arise from lack of exercise or insufficient mental stimulation.

What is your exercise routine for Riley? Weims are pretty energetic dogs What sort of mental stimulation does he get? (training/play/toys)

Usually excessive licking is stress related. More exercise will definately help. Weim have a very high energy level and are prone to neurotic tendencies if they have too much pent up energy.

Also look at why the dog growled? Is HIS boundries being respected? Does he have a place to get away from the kids? For instance the kids should no if the dog is sleeping or in his crate DO NOT bother him.

Incorperate your son in some basic obedience exercises so the dog sees him as someone to respect not just a playmate.


I think 90 % of the time there is problems between dogs and kids the owners have not done a good enough job training the KIDS>

Wow, great questions and feedback already.

First, I don’t think the licking is stress related. He only licks people, we’ve always assumed he was kissing us. He isnt even that interested in grooming himself.

His training background… He’s ALWAYS been in a crate, to sleep at night and during the day when we were at work. It’s never been a fight to get him there. He’s always crated himself after going potty before bed, or when one of us get a coat on to leave the house. If he doesn’t go in on his own, a simple “crate” command does the trick. We always give him a treat when he is in there also.

He knows the basic, sit, stay, down, come commands. He will sit and hold if given a stay even if we throw a ball. He has never been allowed on furniture or in bed.

As for the growling. My husband, son (1 year old) and I were in Disney World for a week in March, Riley was with my in laws. Despite our request, they allow Riley in bed, on furniture and get him out of his crate if he barks. He is pack leader there. I don’t know if that has anything to do with the growling, but the day we got back, Riley was laying on the floor in the living room, but awake and could see Owen approaching. As Owen approached, Riley growled. I quickly got up and did the wrong thing. I coddled Riley, petting him and telling him it was ok, etc. I only learned this was wrong through Eds Video on Pack Order. Do you think that the growling could be related to the pack order he had for a week?

That incident is what prompted us to get the videos and the training supplies. Getting rid of Riley isnt an option, we love him, he is part of the family, and his issues are the result of poor training on our part, not his fault at all. We started the “social isolation” phase and it broke our hearts. He is such a loving dog, with extremely high pack drive. Needs to be with us at all times. We followed the training to a T. Meals in the crate, out of the crate on a leash to go potty, long walks on leash for exercise and we are both aloof to him. We don’t pet, baby talk, etc. He gets simple reinforcement and commands. Sit, good sit, crate, good crate, potty, good potty, etc. The prong collar was purchased after correcting with the flat leash for pulling on walks wasn’t working. The dominant dog collar is used as backup to the prong when walking.

The no bark collar was purchased after Riley was unable to be calm and submissive in the crate on his own after a week. He was fine the majority of the time, but would have tantrums during the times he was normally out with us. After 3 days, we have seen a HUGE improvement in the crate behavior. We hope to have in on leash in the house on Sunday.

Exercise. We do what we can with Riley in doors in the winter. He HATES being outside in the cold and snow (we live in Upstate NY) and sometimes would prefer to hold it than to go out in the negative wind chills to go potty. So we play fetch in doors, balloon volleyball, hide and seek, etc. He is usually sleepy after an evening of playing and ready to sleep on his bed in the office by 8:00 until we go to bed. During the summer, we play outside with a Frisbee or a ball. He gets to run on my parents 26 acres and he swims also.

There are several things we learned from the training already. Riley would sit by the couch and just paw us all evening and we would pet him. Wrong. We as pack leaders decide who and when to give affection. We were feeding Riley in the kitchen, he will be fed in the crate now. We had a bin full of toys that he had access to. Wrong, we decide what he plays with and when he plays. We have been encouraging interaction between Riley and our son, Wrong. Riley will be getting an “OFF” command when he goes near our kids or anything that smells like them.

I don’t think its realistic to train a 1 year old to steer clear of the dog and we also have another baby due July 2nd. Riley will never be left alone with my kids, if I need to take one upstairs to change a diaper; Riley will go in his crate and will get a fun food toy to work with. So we need to get this worked out. I appreciate any feedback or ideas.

Thanks!

 Quote: Michelle Berdusco

Incorperate your son in some basic obedience exercises so the dog sees him as someone to respect not just a playmate.

Michelle,

Maybe you missed it but the son is only 1 year old.
No reason that they cannot start teaching the child how to be around the dog, slowly of course since he is a little tyke, but incorporating him into obedience is a little out of the spectrum for the child right now.

Carolyn,

Welcome to the board! Sounds like you are definitely on the right track by finding this board and purchasing the DVD on Pack Structure.

I'm sorry that I don't have anything else to add - I'm sure there will be others who are much more knowledgeable than myself who will have suggestions.

Carolyn, it sounds like you are doing a great job to remedy this situation.
I also had a growling issue w/ my pup and my 5 year old, and had to go back a few steps in my groundwork to get it under control.

One thing that I would stress to you is to be very careful about supervising your child and the dog when they are together. A one year old is very active and unpredictable (as you know!) and may do something very innocent such as leaning over the dog's head, which in a dog w/ dominant tendancies could trigger growling or even a bite.

Also, after you are done w/ your social isolation period, make sure that any chewy treats are given only in the crate.

Welcome to the board!

Carolyn,

You have definitely done a wonderful job at working on this.

I think that the week of "spoiling" probably had a lot to do with the situation as well. It is important to explain to whoever is going to watch the dog that the rules be followed, especially since you have small children.

Weims are definitely a high energy dog, but the ones I have known, have all been really good with kids, and of course the kids were taught how to act around the dog as well.

It sounds like you are on the right track. How did the dog "growl" at Owen? Was it a loud warning growl or a low grumble?
Kind of hard to explain over the internet, but my older Mal will kind of do this low noise that some may mistake as a growl, but she is not, it is like she uses that noise in place of a whine when she wants something or needs to go out.

NOT saying that is what happened here, just trying to open the lines of communication in order to help.

Did Riley have a toy or chew treat when Owen approached? Was he laying on a dog bed or blanket that is designated as "his spot" when out of the crate? How long had you been home from your vacation when this happened?

I think you are on the right track Carolyn! Sounds like you are doing what you can.. on behalf of your dog: THANK YOU!! Its great to see people care and that are willing to put a little work into their dogs. Its win-win when you take the time to read up or ask questions so again, thank you.

I would also like to say that in regards to children I do not recommend having a child give a dog commands. Depending on the age of the child, if they can understand that they are to only give the dog a command when you are right there with them telling them to do so, then I agree incoorporating them into OB work can be good. But always discourage children from giving a dog commands in everyday situations or a child trying to correct a dog.

Children and animals should always be supervised for the well being of all involved.

The reason I discourage children giving dogs commands is if they cannot back it up they shouldn't say it, and children are often not strong enough/wouldn't know what to do etc if a dog refuses a command. I would never expect or want a child to try and give a dog a correction for their safety and the dogs as well.

Example: Child says Doggy Sit! Doggy doesn't sit. Child repeats Doggy Sit! Doggy just walks away. Doggy has just been given an opportunity to ignore a command which erodes the dogs respect of the child. It isn't ever the childs responsibility to be dominant over a dog, it is your job as a dog owner and a parent to protect your child from your dog and your dog from your child. You may have a great kid and a great dog, but it only takes one time and a situation can become serious.

JMHO, it is you as the pack leader that says to the dog to let the child alone, to be gentle, to be affectionate etc. You are not really making the child dominant over a dog this way, you are saying to the dog that as the pack leader you will not tolerate any rough, aggressive, or otherwise inappropriate behavior towards this other pack member.