is it always and only the leader who corrects a pack member's behaviour?

whenever luc acts rudely to me (which isn't often, last time it happened, he was hurt and i didn't realize it), teagan will growl, and snap at him - tonight she got in his face, previously she has nipped his back leg - obviously i don't allow this, and i thought the behaviour was gone, but it just happened again.

basically, we were in the side yard, and the neighbours whose driveway is next to it came out. luc gave a growl/bark - he has before at them, though not for over a month - and he only does it to them - he's fine w/other people walking past next to us, the other neighbour (the one with the dog), but he doesn't seem to like these neighbours. i did my usual (unusual i suppose, since i so rarely have to do it) LUC! SIT! in my 'your world just ended' voice and his butt hit down pretty quickly and he immediately was quiet. then he had to wait on the porch (in the front) until i let him down. (he was off-leash) but when i was moving him to the other side of the porch, i took the handle on his collar - he doesn't like the use of the handle, so he balked a bit and made a noise of protest, which is when teagan (who is on leash w/me) went at him.

i don't think it is physically serious, she's not trying to hurt him, and the dogs immediately played once inside and are now lying together, so it's not like it was taken personally. i obviously don't allow it so it doesn't have the chance to escalate either.

but i'm more worried that it is a sign that teagan, who generally now accepts me as the leader, hasn't fully done so yet. or do middle-ranking dogs correct lower dogs for transgressions to a higher-ranking pack member? (she asks hopefully)

do i have further leadership issues w/teagan to work through/tweak? my guess is yes....

Dogs shouldnt be allowed to correct eachother.

Ms. Mullen,

Concur with Mr. Schoonbrood: "Dogs shouldnt be allowed to correct each other."

That said, my three - on any given day - have a du jour leader manifestation. One day or afternoon or instance my oldest female will act as hall monitor, on another the youngest female will be the most alive and exuberant, and sooner or later the male will assert himself.

It is in the nature of dogs to push and probe, assert and submit, act out and comply in various situations - I think. That the dogs react to me with an 'enough' is what I require; that and that mine understand I deal with issues, and when I do I don't need help.

I'm not looking for the dog to be docile. I want the dog to be a dog in balance.

This has to be one of my more dumb posts. Not quite worth two cents.

I did say I don't allow it.

Last night, Teagan was correct and moved away. When Luc was allowed off of the porch and she showed an unusual level of interest in him, I redirected her.

I'm wondering though if that she even tries it is indicative of a rank issue w/her and I.

Teagan definitely ranks higher than Luc; Mike, in your experience then with the dynamic between your three, does it only occur that the high-ranking dogs issue corrections? If a lower-ranking dog acts out to a higher-ranking dog, will another dog step in?

 Quote:

I did say I don't allow it.

I was simply answering your first question: "is it always and only the leader who corrects a pack member's behaviour?"

fair enough! i definitely agree it is my responsibility.

so that she's stepping in, could indicate an issue in the rank order between her and i? i've heard that is normal, but i want to make sure b/c i don't want to accidentally ignore something that might be indicative of rank issue w/her and i.

Ms. Mullen,

"Mike, in your experience then with the dynamic between your three, does it only occur that the high-ranking dogs issue corrections? If a lower-ranking dog acts out to a higher-ranking dog, will another dog step in?"

This may sound like a crazy and long pontificating answer to your question but... I am the highest ranking dog. In my eyes and by my actions, the other dogs are equals. There are no higher or lower in the pecking order dogs. Put another way, my dogs are not authorized to correct.

I correct. I lead. I give. I take away. I praise. I show displeasure. When I move I expect the dogs to watch me for a cue. When I command I expect compliance. I expect unwanted behavior to cease on command. I expect play and free time to cease on command.

I do not tolerate one dog even trying to dominate another - I immediately stop the behavior. My unwanted behavior command is 'enough!' Having written that, it is in the nature of dogs to test, and to assert, and to do what dogs do. Dogs are pack animals that dominate and submit in circumstances. I think in a balanced pack, the dogs don't overly act to dominate because there is already a strong leader exerting control and setting pack parameters.

I don't want docile dogs but I really don't want my three to be a constant snarling mob. I want the dogs to 'get along' within the boundaries I establish. And they seem to.

Do my dogs ever have episodes? Not often but occasionally the command 'enough' has to be used. But it is used at the first sign of an issue.

Rules are rules. I lead - you follow, is my individual and pack rule.

I don't know if that answered your question.

Sort of - this has only happened 2 (sort of a third) times, and it hasn't happened for almost 4 months (edit: using the sort of time....otherwise it hasn't happened for 5.5 months), I'm coming up on having Teagan for 6 months now.

The first time it happened, it was obvious what was happening, though I was taken aback by it, I stopped it, corrected Teagan, and removed her from the situation.

Is dominating necessarily part of correcting? Teagan is a higher-ranking dog than Luc, but I'm wondering more about whether the correcting behaviour is normal - is it necessarily a sign of dominance?

I should also note that Teagan does not display this behaviour in her and Luc's relations - she has only ever done it when Luc has acted out towards me.

I asked this question on another board and pretty well everyone said it was normal for dogs to correct other dogs at times, especially if a dog stepped out of it's established role in the pack.

Given their personalities, Luc and Teagan will never be on equal footing and I've never tried to treat them as though that was the case - I've always recognized Teagan as a higher-ranking dog - she gets fed first, for instance, little stuff like that - but I've also always asserted my leadership w/both of them. Luc immediately accepted it, it took a bit longer w/Teagan, though things have been going very well lately, and I'm not sure how to view what happened last night in that context. So my set-up is a bit different from yours b/c I do recognize Teagan as a higher-ranking dog than Luc, but the way they are, I didn't have to reinforce that between them, Luc is very submissive....he treats my geriatric 3-legged, no teeth cat as higher-ranking.

Jennifer---yes, another dog may step in to correct another dog when the pack owner fails to, IMO. "When the pack owner fails to" is the important part of that sentence. When you have a strong pack leader who corrects all members of the pack fairly and appropriately, you will see less of this behavior.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

I should also note that Teagan does not display this behaviour in her and Luc's relations - she has only ever done it when Luc has acted out towards me.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

The first time it happened, it was obvious what was happening, though I was taken aback by it, I stopped it, corrected Teagan, and removed her from the situation.

The way I'm reading this situation is that you corrected the wrong dog. Luc acted out toward you, you did nothing (or did something too late) so Teagan stepped in to do what you failed to.

If you had quickly and fairly corrected Luc for acting out towards you, Teagan would have had no reason for correcting Luc because you would have already taken care of it. Once she learns that you're effectively handling things, then this behavior will lesson, IMO.

It is hard to effectively and timely correct as well as another dog will, but it sounds like Teagan is the kind of dog who will demand this of you or she will take matters into her own hands. Some dogs just require a stronger (and quicker!) leader than others.

Some dogs will try to scrap between themselves and of course that should not be allowed. But in the situation you described, it sounded like Luc should have been corrected for giving you crap before Teagan had a chance to.

Aren't dogs fun?

thanks amber. the first time it happened, i was having a bit of a fight with luc, which i shouldn't have (i posted about it after, it was upsetting) - i didn't realize he was hurt, and i was trying to get a pack on him....that i definitely didn't handle correctly.

that's very good insight though. also, b/c last night - luc balked and squaked at being moved to the other side of the porch, but i was able to move him, so to me, i was like 'you can make all the noise you want, you're still going over here', and he did, so i didn't think to correct him. what i wanted was occuring, albeit in an unsmooth fashion. b/c luc is such a generally submissive dog, on his very occassional 'hmmph' moments, i don't worry about them the same way i would with teagan, who's a lot more likely to actually truly try to test me.

teagan and i obviously had different reactions to that, but i can see that if there is another issue, i can handle it differently so that teagan does not feel like she needs to step in. the easiest thing would be just to keep a leash on luc, b/c he's fine w/that, he does not like the collar handle being used. i have moved him w/the handle b/f and he does hate it, and teagan didn't react. i would guess she knew he was already in trouble and then was acting snottily, so she felt it was time to step in.

that's very helpful though! b/c i definitely don't want her doing it, and that really makes sense about why it is occuring, and definitely that goes with her personality.

Edited by Jennifer Mullen (04/23/2008 11:21 AM)
Edit reason: adding a 'not' :)