I am working with Buster to groom him for his CD title. He has such snappy obedience that he's sure to do great- except for one thing. Im not sure how he'll do offleash; he is an escape artist and not reliable offleash at this point because he'll streak off and climb a fence, jump a fence, etc.
I have tried proofing him with a long line but the little sucker knows when Im not holding it, or cant step on it so we get to a stalemate. Ive tried the E-collar but he will actually keep going even through the stimulation.
Has anybody had a dog like this that they succesfully did obedience or another sport with? what are y'alls suggestions? I know that proofing is everything but fences are not secure with him (and I dont know of anywhere with a 10 foot-er. so there is a certain stage of the proofing that I m not comfortable with. any ideas?

What triggers him to bolt? Is he chasing something, is his trying to initiate a fun game of chase, is he startled? Does he recall from these sessions or do you have to go after him?

My first feeling about why the e-collar doesn't work is either that it isn't high enough for whatever drive he's in, or he doesn't understand what the stim means and it just encourages his running. I would ask Roni about this.

But just based on what you said, I would certainly suggest working on recall as a seperate issue. That's certainly something a CD should be solid on, IMO.

But I think his trigger for bolting is an important consideration for proofing.

Do you have a fenced baseball field or outdoor basketball court nearby? Maybe a school yard after hours or over the weekend? These types of places are usually well-fenced.

His reason for bolting is for fun; while he belonged to another family member, he took to bolting through doors, he soon learned that it was tons of fun to have everyone running after him and missing by an inch. So basicly hes just out for a joy ride BUT he knows when he can, so his trigger is the mere possibility of being out. so chasing isnt the start, its just...opportunity which he has 1 year of succesful get a aways under his belt and is pretty good at it. When I got him (he was given to me because of this problem) I keep him leashed all the time. He can scale a 6 ft fence in seconds, can run like a deer and dig under a fence even faster.
I have looked all over but there is only one place with a fence high enough and they flatly wont allow dogs..

I would be really encouraged if someone else had a dog like this that they managed to get to a good enough place to do obedience with.

With the e collar, Im left off trying it with the escaping because after months of gradual work with it, and he was responding great.
at the crucial moment in his training, he once bolted to go over the fence so I delivered a shock strong enough to make him jump (in mid stride)and squeak, but he just kept running. That was the moment that it was all waiting for, (when he decided to bolt when I called him.)
Soon after that I got so busy that I havent really worked on his escaping, just avoided it altogether.

certainly Im doing somethings wrong. He is not the kind of dog I would have offleash because of his...temptation. I just want to get his title, which seems do able...no?

Mary...if he's doing it for fun, then a good starting point to me would be to make the obedience MORE fun than bolting. What rewards do you use, how often...is he getting bored with the routine do you think? What really motivates him to want to stick around?

Also, when he bolts what do you do? Do you yell 'come' or something like that...his name? Some word that he might have already learned that he can ignore?

I would go back and retrain the recall using a different word, if so. He should never have an opportunity to get away (long-line), and recalling to you should be bliss for the dog. He has to do it everytime, but if he does oh boy isn't life great for him?

When you finally work back up to proofing him off leash, I would use an e-collar and I would retrain his understanding of what the stim means on a recall. Again, I would ask Roni about this but I've personally had good success pairing a low stim on an e-collar with dogs that understand the long line at first so they learn that the stim means the same thing but I'm sure she has some fantastic wisdom and better ways for you.

And Sarah's suggestion of a b-ball court or a tennis court is a good idea for an enclosed area that is usually available in most places.

Do you have any seminars available to you? Bringing your dog to one can be really helpful for hands-on insight.

But I would step back and rework the recall as well as making the ob uber fun and motivating for the dog.

Thanks, Amber.
I dont bother to call him since I cant make him come. I know that he wouldnt respond (the yelling/chasing/demanding routine was used on him so words became inefectual).
He is very food motivated and has a phenominal recall under distraction, no matter enviroment BUT only on leash so...
I guess I will just work with a long line and then graduate to a really thin/invisible type line??

 Quote: Mary Roach

Thanks, Amber.
I dont bother to call him since I cant make him come. I know that he wouldnt respond (the yelling/chasing/demanding routine was used on him so words became inefectual).
He is very food motivated and has a phenominal recall under distraction, no matter enviroment BUT only on leash so...
I guess I will just work with a long line and then graduate to a really thin/invisible type line??

I'd start over. As Amber suggested, I'd also use a new word for the recall. I would start with a long line with this dog and I'd take plenty of time in the teaching phase (with this dog) before proofing.

I'd grab wonderful treats and go on out to the yard with no distractions to start, and I'd reel him in with no comment at all when he doesn't comply. But I'd also set out to make him WANT to comply.

Yes, I have had success with adopted dogs whose favorite thing was to play keep-away.

I started from day one using the recall to cement the idea in the dog's head that recall = good stuff and ignoring it is totally useless and boring (for Phase 1; corrections are way down the road).

I used a new word and viewed it as a new command.

The most recent keep-away dog now picks his head up, pricks his ears, and turns to me at a gallop when he is called. This took months, but it's worth the time/energy investment to me.

And it's actually as simple as Amber says: the dog learns that obeying the recall is great and not obeying it isn't an option anyway.

I never called the dog to be corrected or scolded, for anything. I made sure to use the recall for every good thing as I was training him, even if it meant clipping on a long line (any time I had doubt) and walking back to where I had been first. (You have to assess this; if he always comes indoors, then no problem with just calling for every good thing. If there's any doubt at all, don't give an option. A big goal is to get it across that it's not optional, and every time the dog doesn't obey is another lesson to the dog that it IS optional.)

Yes, this works.

P.S. I am always working with untrained or badly-trained adults, so I can assure you that this does work.

I also agree 110% with Amber's comments about making OB fun for everyone involved. I like doing OB work; it's a matter of keeping it short and sweet and motivating the dog.

Mary;
I totally agree with Amber and Connie, you need to start over teaching the basics, on leash, using a very low level on the e collar, you being the source of joy. Your dog was not ready for the proofing stage, and he did not know what to do with the high
level of stim that you gave him. If you had had the long line, you could have given him direction with it, otherwise the stim
was just causing an uncomfortable feeling. I have worked with
retrains for years and the program that I teach always works.
This dog has learned to play a game, not a bad thing, but you don't play it right, in his eyes, so you need to teach him another game that is more fun.........sounds like a very nice dog!